Author Topic: Can't find non-resistor plug caps--how do you run DR8EIX iridium resistor plugs?  (Read 38706 times)

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Offline Syscrush

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Now, if you have higher spark, you will burn more fuel, that is pretty much guaranteed.
That's contentious.  If you pour out 1oz of gasoline onto your workbench and light it with a match, it burns up about the same as if you light it with an oxy-acetylene torch.  If there's enough spark energy to trigger combustion (which is an exothermic reaction), then that fuel is gonna burn, generally.

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More fuel burned means less chance of carbon build-up and thus, less cleaning.
No doubt about that one, but there are factors other than the strength of the spark.
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Offline Skunk Stripe

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you are not lighting the fuel with a torch are you though. Nor a match. It is a controlled burn in a high pressure environment that happens very quickly. If you have a weak spark, you will not be able to burn as much fuel as a stronger spark would in the same amount of time. I am not even sure how you can argue this and it is a proven fact.

Offline Syscrush

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you are not lighting the fuel with a torch are you though. Nor a match. It is a controlled burn in a high pressure environment that happens very quickly. If you have a weak spark, you will not be able to burn as much fuel as a stronger spark would in the same amount of time. I am not even sure how you can argue this and it is a proven fact.
I agree that if the spark is below what's required you won't get proper combustion, but if it's above what's required I don't think it's proven that more spark will burn more fuel.

If more spark would burn more fuel, then why not have bigger ignition systems instead of catalytic converters?
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There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline Holden

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Which do you think would start/run better: D8EA plugs with resistor caps or DR8EIX plugs with resistor caps?  Would having a resistor cap on a resistor plug defeat whatever benefit the DR8EIX plugs offer?

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Well holden, it is possible. You are doubling the resistance by pairing up a resistor cab and plug so it will require more energy to make the jump.

Crush, the ignition system on these bikes is not that strong. I think somewhere around 14-18,000 volts and that's all. Now when you add to it that the years prior to 77 run rich already, there is no way all the fuel is being burned in that short of time. Think if it this way, your engine has something like .05 seconds to burn fuel at idle, a stronger spark will allow that mix to burn faster. As you raise rpm, you reduce the amount of time available for burning.

Offline Pinhead

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you are not lighting the fuel with a torch are you though. Nor a match. It is a controlled burn in a high pressure environment that happens very quickly. If you have a weak spark, you will not be able to burn as much fuel as a stronger spark would in the same amount of time. I am not even sure how you can argue this and it is a proven fact.

Correct. There are many factors that determine combustion efficiency, and spark power and duration are one of these factors. One thing that is very often overlooked, though, is the faster the combustion, the more energy is extracted.

Modern cars tout a 99.9% burning of the fuel that goes into them. That is true (because they count burning in the catalytic converter ::)). But the gasoline engine is still only 25-30% efficient because not all of that burning is doing usable work. The faster the fuel is burned, the more work goes to the piston and the less is wasted as heat. Better spark characteristics help more quickly initiate combustion and more efficiently burn the fuel.

I agree that if the spark is below what's required you won't get proper combustion, but if it's above what's required I don't think it's proven that more spark will burn more fuel.

If more spark would burn more fuel, then why not have bigger ignition systems instead of catalytic converters?

Because catalytic converters are mandated by law. ;) And the EPA requires automotive manufacturers to maintain emissions guidelines to 100,000 miles which means 100,000 mile plugs. They start with a small gap so that at 100,000 miles when the gap is huge due to spark erosion they'll still fire.

Well holden, it is possible. You are doubling the resistance by pairing up a resistor cab and plug so it will require more energy to make the jump.

Crush, the ignition system on these bikes is not that strong. I think somewhere around 14-18,000 volts and that's all. Now when you add to it that the years prior to 77 run rich already, there is no way all the fuel is being burned in that short of time. Think if it this way, your engine has something like .05 seconds to burn fuel at idle, a stronger spark will allow that mix to burn faster. As you raise rpm, you reduce the amount of time available for burning.

You are correct in that it may effect the spark by running both sets of resistors (in the plug and in the cap). BUT your explanation is only slightly correct.

The resistance in the plugs, wires, and caps, has very little to do with the voltage required to initiate the spark.

Think of a simple battery/resistor circuit (see attachment). If you were to measure the voltage across the open circuit in the attached diagram, it will be exactly the same voltage as is available from the battery. No matter if the resistance value is 1 ohm or 1M ohm, the voltage is still the same with no drop across the resistors.

The voltage is what initiates the spark.

Also, while the factory ignitions may be capable of producing 14,000 volts, they aren't actually required to. The plug gap, electrode temperature, shape, and metal composition, and conditions inside the cylinder is what determines the voltage requirements. At modest gaps and modest pressures (inside a stock SOHC4) the voltage requirement to initiate the spark event is closer to 5,000 volts. Widen the gap or increase the pressure, and the voltage requirement increases.

The in-line resistance reduces the peak spark current and increases the spark duration.

The current is reduced because that's what resistors do.

The duration is increased because the voltage from the coil doesn't drop down to zero instantly. Due to the nature of inductance, once current begins to flow through the spark gap, it wants to continue to flow until the coil runs out of energy. Basically, the coils store current. If the flow of current is reduced, it takes longer to drain it all (compare a bucket full of water draining through a small hole [high resistance] to a bucket full of water with the bottom blown off [dead short]).

Remember, though, that the coils only store so much total energy (combination of voltage and current) so you don't want huge resistances in-line with the plug. Now whether the resistive plug combined with the resistive cap is too much, that has yet to be determined and testing will have to be done to find out.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 09:09:27 AM by Pinhead »
Doug

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Offline TwoTired

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Which do you think would start/run better: D8EA plugs with resistor caps or DR8EIX plugs with resistor caps?  Would having a resistor cap on a resistor plug defeat whatever benefit the DR8EIX plugs offer?

You are still not considering the whole circuit.
Instead of only putting race tires on the family car, now you are adding race wheels too, and then hoping for a faster car.
In your case, you are still driving the spark circuit with coils you haven't defined or specified, or stating how the coils are to be charged and triggered.  Until you consider the entire spark circuit, you can't arrive at an accurate answer.

Contrary to some misinformation given here, the resistors don't effect the spark voltage at all.  The amount of resistance only effects the spark event after all the spark gaps have been jumped.  That is when current flows and when resistors constrain current flow.
The range of resistance tolerated is related to the stored energy of the coil.  There has to be enough current to sustain the spark channel, or the event is curtailed prematurely.
It is NOT wise to have both resistor plugs and resistor caps.  It can work.  But, then so can race tires on the family car (until you hit a simple road hazard).

I once asked my friend Tom (who owns and operates the local MC shop here in town), about why he was replacing the iridium plugs on a customer's bike with standard plugs.  He said they aren't worth it as it doesn't make the engine run any better.  He'll sell them to you if you specify, and he makes more money off the sales.  But, he doesn't recommend them to customers or use them in any of his 14 bikes anymore.  He did try them, and found no value for the average or even high performance street machine.

If the rest of your spark circuit or engine is extraordinary in some way, maybe the iridiums could provide some benefit.

It's not the track shoes or football helmet that make athletes perform above all others.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Holden

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Which do you think would start/run better: D8EA plugs with resistor caps or DR8EIX plugs with resistor caps?  Would having a resistor cap on a resistor plug defeat whatever benefit the DR8EIX plugs offer?

You are still not considering the whole circuit.
Instead of only putting race tires on the family car, now you are adding race wheels too, and then hoping for a faster car.
In your case, you are still driving the spark circuit with coils you haven't defined or specified, or stating how the coils are to be charged and triggered.  Until you consider the entire spark circuit, you can't arrive at an accurate answer.

...

If the rest of your spark circuit or engine is extraordinary in some way, maybe the iridiums could provide some benefit.


Lloyd, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you wrote in the past that stock coils were good in these bikes unless there's some sort of physical damage to them.  I'm running stock coils.  I'm also running stock points/condensers.  Are you suggesting that if I were to go to a Dyna/PAMCO ignition and perhaps high performance coils, there might be some some benefit to iridium plugs?

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Holden, do some net research on your own. Your spark will not decrease from using iridium plugs. Time between changes will go up. A stronger spark will be had.

Yes, I was wrong on how the resistance worked. But I posted more than enough info that proved iridiums are a benefit.
I knew a tom once, well I thought I did, but he was just a front for some company. He didn't know everything.

Offline City Boy

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Hi guys.Here is my 2 cents re the spark plug debate.I have no science to back me up,only seat of the pants observations and the reports from other owners that have followed my advice.I use the NGK DPR8 plugs in my Cobra and all Cb 750's that I tune and also my DOHC 1100F.The loading up of the plugs around town is no longer an issue.When I have raced the Cobra I put in the D8's.   Rock On
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Offline TwoTired

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Lloyd, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you wrote in the past that stock coils were good in these bikes unless there's some sort of physical damage to them.  I'm running stock coils.  I'm also running stock points/condensers.  Are you suggesting that if I were to go to a Dyna/PAMCO ignition and perhaps high performance coils, there might be some some benefit to iridium plugs?

I can see you are struggling.  I'll try to explain.
Both the Dyna and the Pamco wrest the coil charge time interval away from the point cam, which originally was 195 degrees of crankshaft rotation.   Since the crank rotation speed changes, so does the duration of charge put into the coils.  The stock arrangement provides enough charge time to the coils up to about 11000 RPM (maybe higher).  The importance of this is that there is still enough energy stored in the coils to jump two spark gaps of .025 inch at that high RPM.

The Dyna charges the coils for 315 degrees of crankshaft rotation. (This is stupid long and I don't know why they designed it this way.  But, it is a deal breaker for me, such that I don't want to use one.)  While the Dyna provides plenty of time to charge even stock coils.  There can be coil heating issues (leading to failure) and excessive electrical draw from the already marginal charging system of the SOHC4.

Last I checked, the Pamco charged the coils for 185 degrees of crankshaft rotation.  I don't know why this is so.  Perhaps it was design convenience/economy.  Or, perhaps so the system will only work optimally if you also pay extra for "super coils", which he sells, too.

The point is, neither Dyna or Pamco designs were optimized for the stock coils, although they may still "work" with them in a non-optimized way.

If you decide to lavish large sums of money for whichever vendor's entire "solution", then you may end up with higher energy storage in non-stock coils  (at the expense of higher current draw from the bike's electrical system.)

Such extra storage is largely wasted for actually improving combustion situations unless the spark gaps are increased, so a higher voltage will be developed across the spark gaps.  It is the gap distance and atmospheric contents between the spark gaps that determine the actual voltage needed to jump and sustain those arcs.  I don't care if you put on coils that have 50,000 volt capability, the spark occurs at the gap requirement, not the peak capability of the coil on a test bench.

Anyway, as the spark gaps and voltage within them increase, so does the heat at the spark spring off points on the electrodes.  This tends to atomize the metal and appears as erosion.  So, while subjected to the higher spark voltage and energy the gaps slow and continuously increases.  Iridium can withstand the higher heat/voltage/gap without loss of base metal longer than steel ones, with much less erosion.  Another add to the heat equation is that generated inside the combustion chamber.  High engine loads at high RPM add more heat to the spark electrodes in addition to any excessive spark system power added to the situation, increasing the erosion effect.

If you have increased the power of your engine via cam or increased compression ratio.  You may need more spark energy than stock, as you have changed the atmospheric conditions within the spark gap.  If the engine is stock, it will only require the spark energy provided with the stock coils in good working order.

The Dyna/ pamco ignition and coil conversions may actually require iridiums in order to reduce spark plug replacement intervals (they will still need the porcelain insulator cleaned on schedule).  Is that the "benefit" you are looking for?  Pay more for an ignition system so you can justify paying more for your spark plugs?

Neither the Dyna or the Pamco will functionally help the stock coils.  The payback for either of these is simply to avoid any skill with setting/maintaining point systems.    If you have no other use for your money, then go for it.  If you also have no better use for your money than to also buy "high energy" coils, then be prepared to also tune up your electrical system, or to reduce their max advertised potential with inline resistors in the power feed to reduce the big suck on the battery/alternator.

If you expect a "power" payback or "economy" payback with ignition conversions, you'll be waiting a good long while to get your money back.

Of course, you can spend your money wherever you like, even if it is charity?   ;D ;D ;D

Has the above made it easier to understand?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Holden

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Yes, Lloyd that helps.  The difference in Dyna/Pamco coil charging interval is especially interesting.  So, would the Dyna S shorten coil life?  And would the Pamco unit slightly undercharge the stock coils?

I bought a set of D8EA plugs today.  (I didn't realize that O'Reilly's carries them for $1.99 each.)  I'm going to put them in tomorrow.  There seems to be some persuasive independent evidence as to the benefits of the iridium plugs.  I am tempted to buy a set of iridium plugs ($29) to do my own seat of the pants comparison.  Supposedly they spark better with the same voltage, leading to better combustion.  If you put summer performance tires on a family car, it's going to corner better than with its stock all-season tires.  A sports car might be take better advantage of the performance tire's capabilities, but they will make the family car stick better.

Offline TwoTired

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So, would the Dyna S shorten coil life? 
It's certainly possible.  But, I'm not going to risk it and test it first hand.  Dyna certainly operates outside of Honda's coil design parameters.

And would the Pamco unit slightly undercharge the stock coils?
In theory yes, at some high RPM point lower than with the points set up.  I don't know if you will see that limitation within the stock red line.  Knowing how close the Honda engineers made design excursion margins, maybe so.  I expect the Pamco would work best with the coils it was matched with, assuming the design engineer had any credibility/prowess.  Initially, I was going to test it, but I'm not going to bother now.

I bought a set of D8EA plugs today.  (I didn't realize that O'Reilly's carries them for $1.99 each.)  I'm going to put them in tomorrow.  There seems to be some persuasive independent evidence as to the benefits of the iridium plugs.  I am tempted to buy a set of iridium plugs ($29) to do my own seat of the pants comparison.  Supposedly they spark better with the same voltage, leading to better combustion. 
Like I said it's your money.  They better last 4 times as long and/or save a whole lot of gas at those prices.  Do let us know if you see any signs of "better combustion", hopefully in terms of data comparisons.  Be aware.  Scientific testing is often done double blind to circumvent human expectations.

Seat of the pants meters/gauges are hard to calibrate.   ;D ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Pinhead

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This thread convinced me to go grab my old DR8EIX's for some testing.

With the GM DIS ignition on my 11:1 CB650, I was able to increase the plug gap from 0.080" with D9EA plugs, to 0.085" with DR8EIX plugs before spark scatter occurred. Not a huge difference, but measurable and repeatable.

This test is obviously on the bleeding edge, but it demonstrates an advantage.

HOWEVER, IMHO this advantage is only realized if you want to gap your plugs close to the limit of the ignition system.

I personally believe the factory points ignition is rather anemic and can use all the help it can get. But remember I personally believe an ignition is too weak unless it can stop the heart of an elephant. ;)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:18:52 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

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Offline Simpson

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I have the Denso Iridium plugs in my K0. Bought them fairly cheap on E-bay this spring to test them out and satisfy my curiosity. The little extra cash for Iridium plugs is actually peanuts and seems trivial to the operational costs of a motorcycle. There has been very little information on people's results or impressions posted. Mostly speculation and theory. I run them with stock coils and wires.

In a nut shell they work fine.

I was "hoping" for a slightly better cold engine idling, but nothing helps that on these old timers to my satisfaction. Can't say if they improved any performance for sure. I'd have to swap plugs and do some testing... I'm just not that motivated to experiment on the subject.
My 2 cents...



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Offline Holden

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Like I said it's your money.  They better last 4 times as long and/or save a whole lot of gas at those prices.  Do let us know if you see any signs of "better combustion", hopefully in terms of data comparisons.  Be aware.  Scientific testing is often done double blind to circumvent human expectations.

Seat of the pants meters/gauges are hard to calibrate.   ;D ;D

If they make cold starts easier or increase gas mileage, I would consider them worthwhile when considered in terms of the overall operating costs.  If they do not perform any better than the D8EA plugs, then, obviously, their higher cost is not justifiable.  I don't think I'm going to spend the extra $29 to find out though.  I did buy a points file and gapping gauge for the points.  Perhaps that will be more cost-effective for a good running machine.  I'm new to points...sounds like you'd recommend the Pamco ignition over the Dyna unit, right Lloyd?

Offline Holden

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This thread convinced me to go grab my old DR8EIX's for some testing.

With the GM DIS ignition on my 11:1 CB650, I was able to increase the plug gap from 0.080" with D9EA plugs, to 0.085" with DR8EIX plugs before spark scatter occurred. Not a huge difference, but measurable and repeatable.

This test is obviously on the bleeding edge, but it demonstrates an advantage.

HOWEVER, IMHO this advantage is only realized if you want to gap your plugs close to the limit of the ignition system.

I personally believe the factory points ignition is rather enemic and can use all the help it can get. But remember I personally believe an ignition is weak unless it can stop the heart of an elephant. ;)

Do you think there would be a benefit with the stock ignition system?

So, there would be no detriment to running resistor plugs with resistor caps?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 09:25:24 PM by Holden »

Offline Pinhead

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This thread convinced me to go grab my old DR8EIX's for some testing.

With the GM DIS ignition on my 11:1 CB650, I was able to increase the plug gap from 0.080" with D9EA plugs, to 0.085" with DR8EIX plugs before spark scatter occurred. Not a huge difference, but measurable and repeatable.

This test is obviously on the bleeding edge, but it demonstrates an advantage.

HOWEVER, IMHO this advantage is only realized if you want to gap your plugs close to the limit of the ignition system.

I personally believe the factory points ignition is rather anemic and can use all the help it can get. But remember I personally believe an ignition is weak unless it can stop the heart of an elephant. ;)

Do you think there would be a benefit with the stock ignition system?

So, there would be no detriment to running resistor plugs with resistor caps?

The only benefit I can see with the iridium plugs is if you were to open the gap up further than the stock combination would otherwise allow. I was able to go 0.005" inches wider in the gap with my ignition system, though admittedly 0.080" is on the very edge of reliability; much further and the wires can no longer hold in the spark under heavy engine loads.

For instance if the factory calls for 0.025" gap, I'd test 0.030" or 0.035" with iridium plugs.

I replaced the resistors with slugs in my test to keep the in-line resistance values close to the same (remember that the stock plug caps have removable/replaceable resistors). With the stock ignition system I would not run resistor plugs with resistor caps.

The way I see it, since the iridium plugs' claim to fame is to reduce the voltage requirement to initiate the spark, the only time they would show an advantage is if spark voltage is your limiting factor. With a stock engine and stock plug gap, I could see them helping in situations where the coil primary voltage is low such as while the starter motor is cranking over and/or idling with a semi-depleted battery. This advantage would be further demonstrated if the plug gap is wider than stock.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:19:55 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
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Offline TwoTired

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I did buy a points file and gapping gauge for the points.  Perhaps that will be more cost-effective for a good running machine.  I'm new to points...
That's a good investment for the these old bike, imo.  As well as the skill to use them properly.

sounds like you'd recommend the Pamco ignition over the Dyna unit, right Lloyd?
I had high hopes for the Pamco.  Sadly, I can't recommend it either.  The business practices of the maker soured any interest in giving away my money.
Fortunately all my points systems are easily maintained.
I will mention that Hondaman makes a device that extends the life of the points nearly indefinitely.  It keeps all the dwell time and other ignition factors same as stock, and work great with the stock coils.  If I only had one SOHC4, I would have one on my bike.  I'm just too cheap to buy 10 of them.  ;D ;D

The detriment to having more resistance than required (Rcaps and Rplugs), is that it can diminish the current flow too much while the spark event is happening, to the point where there isn't enough current to keep the arc channel active, this would shorten the spark event.  Not recommended.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Syscrush

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Like I said it's your money.  They better last 4 times as long and/or save a whole lot of gas at those prices.
Given that the price difference is about the same as 3 beers, I think you're setting the bar pretty high...

Quote
Seat of the pants meters/gauges are hard to calibrate.   ;D ;D
On this (as on quite a few other things), we agree 100%!
Life is precious: wear your f'n helmet!
There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline Holden

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I had high hopes for the Pamco.  Sadly, I can't recommend it either.  The business practices of the maker soured any interest in giving away my money.


Is it the design/performance of the unit itself or the business practices of the maker that prevents you from recommending it?

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Last I checked, the Pamco charged the coils for 185 degrees of crankshaft rotation.  I don't know why this is so.  Perhaps it was design convenience/economy.  Or, perhaps so the system will only work optimally if you also pay extra for "super coils", which he sells, too.

Cheers,

TwoTired,

The PAMCO ignition has a dwell angle of 120 degrees, as is clearly stated in our advertising. PAMCO does not sell ignition coils.


Offline Holden

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Last I checked, the Pamco charged the coils for 185 degrees of crankshaft rotation.  I don't know why this is so.  Perhaps it was design convenience/economy.  Or, perhaps so the system will only work optimally if you also pay extra for "super coils", which he sells, too.

Cheers,

TwoTired,

The PAMCO ignition has a dwell angle of 120 degrees, as is clearly stated in our advertising. PAMCO does not sell ignition coils.

Does this mean that the pamco ignition charges the coils for less duration that the stock ignition?

Thanks.

Offline TwoTired

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Is it the design/performance of the unit itself or the business practices of the maker that prevents you from recommending it?

Since I don't want to replace my coils, it is both.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline lordmoonpie

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Interesting discussion. I can't comment on the stocker situation becuase my 750 is far from stock, but I can comment on the change to iridium plugs. My motor is very highly tuned and runs original Keihin CRs so it's a #$%* to start. On D8EAs it's a nightmare to start, on iridium plugs it starts easier and runs slightly smoother, although it's still difficult. I tried iridium plugs only because a mechanic I know suggested it'd help the running because the iridium electrode allows a closer hotter spark that doesn't spread as much as the D8EAs. I don't know it that's right but something works better and the only thing I changed is the plugs!

Personally I like iridium plugs - they are nice and shiny and that's the only justification I need :D

Got to ask though TT - why is putting an o-ring chain on an old CB such a bad idea or are you referring to the 550 specifically? Presumably some case clearance issues on that model?
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