Author Topic: 350 Twin questions redux  (Read 4188 times)

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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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350 Twin questions redux
« on: May 03, 2006, 01:48:17 PM »
Two more questions about the 350 Twin:

1. Does it have a 360* or 180* crank?

2. Is the "G" model with the disc brake really that much more desirable?  How is the drum as far as a brake goes?


I am REALLY starting to get a hankering for these little bikes, especially an early "K0" Scrambler.

Super Sport 550

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2006, 03:25:36 PM »
They have 180 degree cranks. Don't know much more about them. I just happen to know that because I have one torn down right now (cam gear retaining bolts broke, bent a valve, etc.). Coincidentally, it is a '71 Scrambler.

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2006, 03:53:18 PM »
They have 180 degree cranks. Don't know much more about them. I just happen to know that because I have one torn down right now (cam gear retaining bolts broke, bent a valve, etc.). Coincidentally, it is a '71 Scrambler.

With the two-tone slabside tank and 10,500 redline?

I like those early features and want one with them.  I REALLY like the rubber kneepads on the very early ones, but wouldn't throw rocks at one without, as long as it has the slabside tank and higher redline.

Offline cb350twin

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2006, 05:11:15 PM »
Curious... Did they make more power with the higher redline?
1975 CB 750 K5
1972 CB 350 Twin K4
1972 CB 500 Four K1

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2006, 05:13:18 PM »
Curious... Did they make more power with the higher redline?

Not sure but I'm an RPM junkie.  I REALLY want the 125cc 5-cylinder race bike.  It spins to over 20K!!!!!!

Offline cb350twin

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2006, 05:37:51 PM »
Ya! i've read about those... never seen photos of it though...
1975 CB 750 K5
1972 CB 350 Twin K4
1972 CB 500 Four K1

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2006, 07:08:05 PM »
I want Mike Hailwood's 6-cylinder 250cc 1966 GP winner...  :-\

The 10,500 RPM redline on the early 325cc engines (that's "350" to the rest of us) was due to a couple of tuning items. The cam had 5 degrees more duration than the later ones, with about .010" less lift: but Honda immediately discontinued these in 1969 when the newer engines came out. These later ones can be identified by the larger oil pump (body = 19 mm diameter instead of 16mm) and the countershaft diameter is larger: also there is some extra washers between gears 2 and 3 on the c'shaft that made it shift better when hot. The 2 & 3 gears are a little narrower, too.

The early engines had larger vacuum lift passages in the carbs to more quickly lift the rubber-diaphragmed pistons. This caused the diaphragms to implode with tiny little holes that made them work erratically afterward. Later revisions caused slower lift, but incomplete lift, necessitating the lower redline because the engine would not get proper mixture at WOT. The spark advancers were modified to advance sooner so the throttle response would not suffer too much.

So, if you're an RPM junkie, do this:
1. Get a 1970-72 model engine. If you have a 1968-69, get the oil pump from the later ones. You'll need the flow.
2. Get (if you can) a 1968-69 cam or find one with 5-7 degrees more duration.
3. Get better valve springs and lightweight retainers.
4. Get the spark advancer from the later 350 engines (1970 or later).
5. Get the carbs from the 1968-69 engine and new diaphragms. Set the float level up 2mm from stock.
6. Set static advance 2 degrees more than stock marks, run premium gas.
7. Keep an eye on your plugs, go colder if they turn white.
8. Use CB pipes. The CL pipes cost 3 HP above 7000 RPM. I've never seen "headers" work on the 350.
9. Install a 1-tooth smaller front sprocket or use the stock CL rear sprocket (it had 4 extra teeth).
10. If you have $$, switch the whole drive chain system to a 520 chain & sprockets.

Go get 11,000 RPM. Have a ball! My brother's went 112 MPH after these changes, up from the stock 98 MPH. Quarter mile times dropped .55 second, too, though I don't remember the ET numbers (just the drop).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2006, 08:37:24 PM »
I want Mike Hailwood's 6-cylinder 250cc 1966 GP winner...  :-\

Me too.  a 250-6 would be KILLER!!!  :P

Regarding the rest of the tuning items:

I certainly WILL do that.  Sounds like a good project after/during my 750 cafe.  The 350 was the chevy smallblock of motorcycles, so I'm sure I can snag some for cheap.  I will take your advice and build one like that, but I also will probably buy a stock CL because I want one to be "Light Dual Purpose".

Super Sport 550

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2006, 03:14:03 PM »
Quote
With the two-tone slabside tank and 10,500 redline?

I like those early features and want one with them.  I REALLY like the rubber kneepads on the very early ones, but wouldn't throw rocks at one without, as long as it has the slabside tank and higher redline.

It is two tone paint, I don't know what the difference is between "slab-sided" and not. It does not have the 10,500 rpm redline, this one is only 9200, I think. Not that it would actually reach that rpm with no compression...

I think that the RC166 would be the bike to find. 250cc inline 6. I think that might be the bike Mike Hailwood rode that you were talking about, come to think of it...

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2006, 06:34:31 AM »
From what I've read (and it's been quite a lot since I'm rebuilding a CB350 myself), the earlier models had a more sporty camshaft, but as those bikes always suffered from poor top end lubrication, Honda decided to make the twin a tourer instead of a sport model. I must say that, even when the sound of high-revs is addictive, I rather have lower revs and less wear to extend the rebuild intervals, so I will just go along with my K4 camshaft.


Raul

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2006, 09:10:30 PM »
From what I've read (and it's been quite a lot since I'm rebuilding a CB350 myself), the earlier models had a more sporty camshaft, but as those bikes always suffered from poor top end lubrication, Honda decided to make the twin a tourer instead of a sport model. I must say that, even when the sound of high-revs is addictive, I rather have lower revs and less wear to extend the rebuild intervals, so I will just go along with my K4 camshaft.


Raul

Check that oil pump. You didn't mention which 350K you have, but the later ones had a 19mm pump body that fixed the top end oiling problem. You can retrofit it into the K0/K1 models, but get the drive arm: if you have a K0 you will probably have to chnge the clutch outer hub ("basket") with the pump drive arm, because the earliest ones were staked onto the clutch hub, as I recall.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2006, 01:27:38 AM »
From what I've read (and it's been quite a lot since I'm rebuilding a CB350 myself), the earlier models had a more sporty camshaft, but as those bikes always suffered from poor top end lubrication, Honda decided to make the twin a tourer instead of a sport model. I must say that, even when the sound of high-revs is addictive, I rather have lower revs and less wear to extend the rebuild intervals, so I will just go along with my K4 camshaft.


Raul

Check that oil pump. You didn't mention which 350K you have, but the later ones had a 19mm pump body that fixed the top end oiling problem. You can retrofit it into the K0/K1 models, but get the drive arm: if you have a K0 you will probably have to chnge the clutch outer hub ("basket") with the pump drive arm, because the earliest ones were staked onto the clutch hub, as I recall.

Thanks for the advice HondaMan. I've got a K4, and I believe the oil pump is original. I have another couple of them bought in eBay, so I will use the one less worn according to the standard clearances.


Raul

snorklefork

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a question for HONDAMAN
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 02:39:04 PM »
i seem to have a bike that contradicts what you say and i am wondering if you are aware of any exeptions.

i am riding a 70 cl350 that i am positive was all original when i bought it.
the tack redlines at 10.5

do you know what engine number initiated the changeor how to determin which one you have with out cracking open the engine?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: a question for HONDAMAN
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2006, 07:58:14 PM »
i seem to have a bike that contradicts what you say and i am wondering if you are aware of any exeptions.

i am riding a 70 cl350 that i am positive was all original when i bought it.
the tack redlines at 10.5

do you know what engine number initiated the changeor how to determin which one you have with out cracking open the engine?

The CL350 sold more than the CB350 in the first 2 years, then it went the other way. It was not uncommon at all for Honda to retitle the bike as the next year's model if it had not sold in its debut year. If you have the 10,500 tach and it's original on a 1970 bike, then it's really a retitled (and repiped) 1969 model. Honda used to have us ship back the ones that did not sell by December 20 for this "retitlement", as they called it, if they were still in the crates. Often, the bikes got new pipes and tanks/side covers, and magically appeared as the next year's models.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

snorklefork

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Re: 350 Twin questions redux
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2006, 09:02:23 AM »
can you lead me to a site that will confirm what you say? according to this site http://www.honda350k.com/CL350.html  my frame and engine numbers coinside with the 70' models.
(this is a great site for identifying the changes made year to year)