Topic: California Sidecar

[bill440cars]

              Well, Seems like I'm off in a different direction. A buddy of mine had an 80' (I think) Gold Wing w/a California sidecar. Well, he talked about selling it alittle while back and I figured it was gone already. To make a long story alittle shorter, I called him today to check on him and before I knew it, he told me that he wanted me to get it from him (instead of anyone else, if I wanted it) What I'm getting at is, I'm going to get my 80' CB750K ready and we'll be putting the sidecar on it. I'm going this route because of several reasons. #1 I work with a young man (18 yrs old this July) who has Cerebral Palsy and I want to set this rig up with an aluminum (to save weight)cargo carrier, to carry his wheelchair and use it to get j him out and let him have the feeling of open air riding. I'm going to finalize the deal this saturday and my buddy will help me set it up on the 750. I think the sidecar is either a 70' or 80's model. It was originally on an early CB750 SOHC (a 70' I think). Any one got any input on where I can find some info on this sidecar or on sidecars in general? I think there was a post on this and a link also but, I haven't found it yet. I figure I'll need a steering damper on this. Anybody?  Later on, Bill

[Sam Green Racing]

And you'll need some big arm muscles Billy. 

[csendker]

FAQ--> http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=2607.msg18796#msg18796

And this guy seems to know his stuff, with downloadable pdf's. --> http://www.sidecar.com/hal.htm

Best of luck for a good cause.

[mcpuffett]

big arms and wider bars   mick.

[Mark M]

If you get the sidecar/bike geomitry right you shouldn't need a damper.
Working out quite what that should be is a case of either finding someone else who has done the hard work with a simmilar setup or just playing arround with it until you have ironed out as many of the bugs as you can.

From memory:
You need to decide on the sidecar wheel position - it's lead ahead of the bikes rear wheel - the normal range will be 8-14 inches or so, a small sidecar normally likes to go to the front and the bigger/heavier to the back. Some realy big charirs have even been mounted in line with the rear wheel but I would'nt want to go any further back.

You need a little toe in - the sidecar wheel carntre line from above should pint slightly in compared to the bikes wheels. A degree or two is about right but needs to be experimented with as it's affected again by size and wheel lead measurements.

Then the bike needs to lean  out a little to allow for road camber.

How the rig handles is affected by the combination of all of these but the main things to consider when fine tuning are.

The wheel lead will mostly effect how it turns.
The toe in will mostly effect how it tracks in a straight line.
The lean will have some effect on both but is more about how stable it feels.
 
 A good fork brace is recomended as there arle a lot more stresses on your old forks.. The best is leading links but that gets expensive.
Square section tyres on the front are a good idea as is upgrading your front brakes to cope with all the extra weight.

I managed to set a little sports chair up over a weekend without too many problems, but the bigger the sidecar the more difficult it will be. On the other hand this sidecar has already been on a cb750 so you should be halfway there on working out some mounting points.

Then all you need to do is work out how to ride it........thats when the real fun and games start. You have been warned!
 

[SteveD CB500F]

Thanks for that Mark.

I've added your comments to the "Sidecar FAQ"  -  I did wonder when I set it up whether anyone would ever read it!

[bill440cars]

              Hey Sam & mcpuffett , Do you reckon anybody makes "Power Steering" for a bike? Ha!Ha!Ha! 
                                              Kinda sounds like I might need it.

             csendker, I appreciate the links, I checked them out and will probably be referring back to \
                           them.

             Thanks Mark for the detailed info, I'll definitely be referring to those.

             Steve, I hate to say that I never thought to check FAQ on the sidecar thing. I'll try to
                       remember that in the future.

                 Thanks again guys, I am appreciative of your responses and to Terry (cb650) who, I've
                 been communicating with on this also.      Later on, Bill

[Raul CB750K1]

Riding a sidecar must be top fun. Don't forget that the sidecar is a dead load, so when stopped it will tend to remain stopped, and when in movement it will tend to continue moving. That is, you will have to steer to the left a little when starting, and a little to the right when braking to counteract. In the curves you will have to move your bodyweight out too.


Of course, if you plan to travel to UK all the considerations have to be reversed, as the sidecar are installed there on the left. If I were you I would look for the lightest one, maybe with just a canvas roof. The most expensive ones with all the commodities are great for long distance touring, but for short trips a small one will do in my opinion.


Have fun!!! But never ever buy an Ural setup, they have a very bad reputation.

Raul

[Mark M]

Riding a sidecar is VERY different from a motorbike.

1/ You need to accelerate to turn to the side the chair is mounted and brake to turn away from the chair. This is as explained
earlier re the sidecar being a dead weight.

2/ if you get this wrong the whole lot wants to tip over - when you first start out it's a good idea to go and practice somewhere quiet. Learn to lift the chair up - with practice you can lift it quite high and keep it there for as long as you like. When you get real good you can go for a straight line Knee down, something solos can't do. Another good trick is lifting your passenger over the bonnets (hoods) of cars waiting to pull out of side roads, he he!

3/ Locking the front/rear wheels is nothing to be affraid of and leaving big black lines in the road, or rear wheel steering either under breaking or off the power is something not many solos can do either.

4/ They are wider than you remember - watch out for parked cars etc, you will stop real quick when you don't make room.

5/ Elderly men will want to talk to you - even more so when you have it hitched to an old relic.

6/ Other bikers will treat you like an alien.

7/ Small children think they are 'cool' (up to about 8 1/2 then they start to realise Dad is an alien - see above).

Urals have a powered sidecar wheel which makes them another breed altogether with a whole new set of problems.

Hope that hasn't put you off.

 

   

[csendker]

At the bottom of the sidecar.com link there's the .pdf files.  I looked through this one:

The Sidecar Manual
By Hal Kendall

I browsed it briefly, and if you dig deep enough, there's very detailed information as to the set-up geometry considerations.  You may want to review it prior to installation.  Even though it was once installed an a CB750, it may not have been set-up properly.  And amongst other things, you'll most likely have to invest in new tires (flat profile, good luck finding them?) as it seems if you don't do this up front, you will shortly have to as the rounded profile will burn off rather quickly.

And you may want to throw in a couple of 50# bags of sand for your maiden voyage to get used to it without risking anyone's neck (besides yourself!).

[bill440cars]

   Raul, Mark & csendker,

                       I am still pushing ahead with this. I knew there was going to be a difference in
        riding, especially with the sidecar empty and I'd heard that of people putting a substitute
        weight in there, when riding by yourself. I also knew that you had to watch yourself on turns
        and when braking. I am really learning a lot from all you guys, about setting it up and operating
        it though. My buddy, who I'm getting it from, has had it for about 2 years now and he has
        removed it from the 750 it was originally on and moved it to the Gold Wing he had. He has also
        set up 1 or 2 others. So, I figure, between what he's learned from this and what you guys are
        telling me, I should do alright. Where I live is sort of secluded, that's to sat there is no through
        traffic, so I can do some riding in my neighborhood without encountering traffic. Even if I'm not
        real excited, after I get to riding and don't like it as well as I thought I would, I'm doing it for
        me and for James (the young man who is "Special Needs" and I work with). I can't imagine him
        not liking it. He loves the outdoors and he loves go carts and rollercoaster rides (I took him on
        one of those roller coaster rides, and --well, let's just say that IF he rides another rollercoaster,
        it WON"T be with me. But, I figure that he will really enjoy getting out in the sidecar.         
         

        And, trust me, I'll definitely check this thing out. Thanks again guys.

                                                                Later on, Bill

[Mark M]

Water in plastic bottles makes good balast as you can adjust easily.

But if you can practice lifting the chair up and learning the balance point helps you build a lot of confidence.

The big one is learning to slow down and excelerate hard through ( for me it's left turns) for you I assume rights, as you need to try and 'overtake' the chair. It feels quite strange at first but soon gets to be real fun.

As you have someone with experience to help out you should be fine, have fun.

[csendker]

Water in plastic bottles makes good balast as you can adjust easily.

he loves go carts and rollercoaster rides

Maybe you can score one of those plastic water-filled dummies the amusement park guys use to test the roller coasters.   I bet you could even use the 'high occupancy vehicle' lanes on the thruway then.

[crazypj]

Sidecars are probably the most fun you can have with your clothes on
Make sure you have some toe in, its not a good thing to have it toe out ( really good chance of getting hurt.
I prefer to have about 1 degree lean in when sitting on bike and about 3/4" toe in
Avon were listing MKII rear tyre which is pretty flat tread and can be used on front with outfit.
If your putting some cash into it this setup works well (Yoshimura kitted Kawasaki 1000 I had to 'play' with, 130mph, 9.5mpg flat out)PJ

[fishtoft]

Why not consider the Carver, at carver-europe.com, no worries about left or right hand bends, or perhaps maybe better when its thirty years older.

[dusterdude]

bill,strap that young man into one of your mopars and let him feel real big block power!!!

[bill440cars]

bill,strap that young man into one of your mopars and let him feel real big block power!!!

              duster, I wish I still had one of those big block mopars to strap him into. The baddest mopar I have now is the Southern Comfort Conversion Van w/a 360. The last one I had was an old state trooper
Dodge Royal Monaco w/ a 440 Interceptor and a 69' road runner 383 (I replaced w/a 440).

[Bob Wessner]

I'm going this route because of several reasons. #1 I work with a young man (18 yrs old this July) who has Cerebral Palsy and I want to set this rig up with an aluminum (to save weight)cargo carrier, to carry his wheelchair and use it to get j him out and let him have the feeling of open air riding.

You've got a big heart there Bill. Best to you on your efforts. Keep us posted on how it's going.

[bill440cars]

And you'll need some big arm muscles Billy. 

         Hey Sam, I'm way away from being strong but, I do have to pick James (the young man I work with, 5'5" 125lbs) up to put in my Van (I don't have a lift at the side of the van.) and at various other times. I know what you're saying though. I imagine the effort it takes to drive it and being somewhat tense from doing something like this when I've never done it before, will be quite draining. I may have to start working out! Ha!Ha!, I don't think I'll go THAT far. Later on, Bill

[bill440cars]

                Well, I went to see my buddy (Eddie) today to see about a deal on the sidecar. We
      agreed on a price and arrangements. I ended up getting the sidecar (an early California
      Companion model) with another body (just like it) that includes a small wrap around windshield
      fender trim and seat shell with hinged mounts. He just repainted it recently. The interior is nice
      and has a cover w/snaps A lugage rack had been previously mounted on the back. Now, I'm
      going to have to put the 80' CB750K (sorry, it's a DOHC) in as project #1 to get it road worthy
      so that the sidecar can be attached. Incidentally, everybody knows about this project EXCEPT
      James (who is going to be the main passenger of the sidecar) I think it was Bob who had his
      wife's blessing to do a certain project just a little while back. Well, I'm in the state of shock, my
      wife is all for this project! Yes, I know it's mainly because it's for James but, you know what, I
      don't care what the reason is. I'm just glad  to have the support, no matter what the reason.
      Anyway, here's hoping I can get this ready before long. Don't worry, I'm not going to try to rush
      this, I'll play it safe. 
                                                                Later on, Bill

[cb650]

Its amazing what a little support will do!    Keep going forward!!!



                       Terry

[bill440cars]

                Thanks Terry, so far so good. I'll do my best to keep going forward. I have to thank you and
     the guys for your support and input on this. When I get this taken care of, I'll try again to post some
     pictures, if I ever figure out how. I've got so much going on at this time, the main thing I'm
     concentrating on is this project. Well, I spent a good part of the afternoon just trying to get the
     sidecar into my 1-car garage along with, my 77' CB550K (rolling chassis somewhat assembled), my 80'
     Honda CB750K (the recipient of the sidecar), my RD350 on my motorcycle lift, a sandblast cabinet
     shelf units along both side walls, 2 Snap-On tool chests on rollaway tool boxes (at the front of the
     garage), a floor type drill press, a 12ton hyd. press and about 5 4-shelf units (forming a wall about
     2 - 2 1/2' from toolboxes) and misc other parts and things. And that's just part of my cramped
     situation. I've got to cut back on my project bikes. If I get rid of the dirt bike projects, that would
     remove about 11. Give me strength!! Then I'd have more room!! Later on, Bill

[Uncle Ernie]

Getting here a tad late- apologies.
I trust you will check in on the Hal Kendall stuff. It's somewhat difficult to say everything because it takes a little knowledge to understand what questions to ask. sidecar.com is a bit like this site, however, as there are folks from all over the world there.
Don't think it's been mentioned; the weight of the SC should be +/- a third of the weight of the bike with rider. Bags of cement work well, also (unless getting caught in the rain) for ballast.  If the sidecar will be on the right as it is in America (don't now where you are), then right-handers are the main turns to watch for and belive me-they can sneak up and bite you on the ass real fast. It's not just on-coming cars to watch for, it's stationery light poles, walls, parked cars, whatever. Get a good overview of the free books from the site.
If properly set up, you shouldn't have to work out. You just learn to deal with the push/pull of starting and stopping. After a while, you don't even think about it. 
Springs, tires, steering bearings, spokes, wheel bearngs, etc  may need to be upgraded.  You will probably get a new sensation known as low speed wobble. Happens around 25mph. A little is normal, especially at times of hitting small bumps and things. (this is why some people like to use a steering dampener) It should even out as you accelerate. If it continues or gets worse, just bear with it until you've come to a stop. Sometimes you can accelerrate and make a sharp turn into the car (left) to even it out, but that will take some practice and if something is really not right- it may not work anyway.  Steerng bearings need to be maybe a half turn tighter than you would have set them for solo riding. And greas them, too. You can get away with street tires for a while, but they will wer relly fast and the front tire gets way more stress than solo riding. Especially in left turns, you can really feel the front tire trying to dig in- block tires give you better grip. You can guage you toe-in partly by how the rig feeels and partly by how fast the SC tire wears. If it looks pretty abraided laterally after a couple hundred miles- again, something is not right.  Especially on right turns, if the bike really sags to the left and/or feels like it might roll over (like an old American car ina turn), the springs probably need to be stronger.
Veteran hackers seem to be extra solicitous to newbies.  Maybe I just got carried away, but the oldtimes have seen how bad things can get with those cute sidecar thingies. We get protective.

[bill440cars]

          Thanks Uncle Ernie, I'm just glad to get all the info I can on this. I got the sidecar today, it's an early California Companion with the spoke wheel. I have joined in on sidecar.com and I've already seen a familiar name there. Trust me, I will heed all info given, especially safety info. My neighborhood  (in Arkansas) doesn't have through traffic and I will do some practicing there to get the feel of it. I can do left and right turns. Thanks again there Uncle Ernie, I appreciate it.  Bill

         I've also followed SteveD's advice and checked out sidecar  FAQ too.

[Egil]

I hope the project goes good