Author Topic: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!  (Read 15490 times)

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Offline dave500

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2012, 04:56:16 PM »
To some, telling people to do a half-@%# job with outdated methods is dumb. But to each his own I suppose

you said it,another dumb reply.

Offline KJ790

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2012, 05:00:06 PM »
so my question is can i lap these (this time by hand) anymore, i don't want to over do it, and i am really hoping i don't have to recut the seats, but i am open to more suggestions now that you all have pictures!

I would use some machinist dye to see what the seat contact patch width is before doing anything.

Who has that precision equipment set up for 33 year old CB750 head???

The same people that have precision equipment to cut modern heads. The over-head valve engine hasn't changed a whole lot over the years. The same precision equipment being used on today's bikes and cars is also being used on 50 year old hottrod heads and SOHC4 Hondas.
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Offline USCG_C130

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2012, 05:02:50 PM »
good idea with magic marker will defiantly try that! and again to all this is suppose to be a budget bike so any ways to save money and still have a well running bike are helpful, but i don't want to cheap out in the places where things must be correct. and does anyone i know a good reputable machine or motorcycle shop here in tampa area, the guy i went to moved back up north somewhere, so im on the hunt for good mechanics. and just incase u couldn't tell i have little experience with motorcycle engines, soo

Offline KJ790

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2012, 06:32:52 PM »
you said it,another dumb reply.

Thanks for the informative post. I suppose this is the response when one discovers that his opinion holds no validity.

To the original poster, you can lap the valves again with very fine lapping compound. This may or may not help seal the valves better. Sometimes the valves will actually seal themselves after running a little bit.
The most dangerous part of a motorcycle is the nut that connects the handlebars to the footpegs.

Offline killersoundz

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2012, 06:57:21 PM »
I made a video on how I lapped my valves, it's nothing special just the process described here

How to: Engine Valve Lapping - 1974 Honda CB750 rebuild: Episode 3
My project thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107447.0

My CB750K4 Starting up for the first time after a seized motor and rebuild!


Offline dave500

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2012, 10:34:10 PM »
Thanks for the informative post. I suppose this is the response when one discovers that his opinion holds no validity

your welcome.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2012, 12:09:49 AM »
Quote
I suppose this is the response when one discovers that his opinion holds no validity.

KJ790, you are the one who is wrong, you going to tell us APE are wrong {thats what you are implying}? These guys have been building and supplying parts for our bikes since their inception and have probably forgotten more than you will ever know. ::)

Quote
I'd like to know where you are getting your information from. Most top engine builders will tell you they haven't lapped valves in over 20 years. Here is a quote from Larry Widmer, who has built more engines than anyone on this forum, a few of which are world record holders:

Ape are a top engine builder, and making stupid comments about who has built more engines is childish, i will Guarantee you Ape and M3 have built more Honda engines than anyone you'll ever know and both are members here, actually, anyone who is anyone in the Sohc world are on this site..  Again from APE,  and they have all the latest  valve seat cutting machinery....

Quote
At APE we have some of the best equipment available and we STILL hand lap each valve in and inspect the marks on the seat and valve.  It is the only way to be sure your equipment did the job as it is supposed to....   Many times we end up re-doing a seat because we don't like what we see after lapping.

Cheers,
Pat at APE


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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2012, 03:09:05 AM »
Just a reminder about name calling and personal attacks.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline KJ790

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2012, 03:37:27 AM »
Quote
I suppose this is the response when one discovers that his opinion holds no validity.

KJ790, you are the one who is wrong, you going to tell us APE are wrong {thats what you are implying}? These guys have been building and supplying parts for our bikes since their inception and have probably forgotten more than you will ever know. ::)

Quote
I'd like to know where you are getting your information from. Most top engine builders will tell you they haven't lapped valves in over 20 years. Here is a quote from Larry Widmer, who has built more engines than anyone on this forum, a few of which are world record holders:

Ape are a top engine builder, and making stupid comments about who has built more engines is childish, i will Guarantee you Ape and M3 have built more Honda engines than anyone you'll ever know and both are members here, actually, anyone who is anyone in the Sohc world are on this site..  Again from APE,  and they have all the latest  valve seat cutting machinery....

Quote
At APE we have some of the best equipment available and we STILL hand lap each valve in and inspect the marks on the seat and valve.  It is the only way to be sure your equipment did the job as it is supposed to....   Many times we end up re-doing a seat because we don't like what we see after lapping.

Cheers,
Pat at APE


Have a read.....     http://aperaceparts.com/headwork.html

Larry Widmer revolutionized the internal combustion engine during the 1970's with his "soft head" design, a design that every single manufacturer has since adopted and used for over 20 years. To even have a conversation about cylinder heads without knowing who he is is foolish. He is one of the most influential people in modern engine history. His research with Hendricks racing showed that lapping valves decreased valve life, and this discovery led to the development of modern valve coatings. If people had never realized that they did not need to lap valves 40 years ago then we wouldn't be where we are today. Unfortunately some people have not gotten the memo.

To say that lapping valves after precision cutting is necessary means that you are saying that all valve train development over the past 30 years did not exist and that every single manufacturer has been doing it wrong for decades. The Honda SOHC4 engine isn't some magical thing that is completely different than every other engine out there, it is a 2 valve OHV engine just like millions and millions of others out there.

This is like planting flowers in a rainforest. Some people will insist you have to water them because that's how they used to do it, the rest of the world has moved on. Just because someone insists you have to do it does not mean that it is true.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:10:44 AM by KJ790 »
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Offline andrewk

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2012, 04:40:46 AM »
Are you a "top engine builder?"

You can probably count the number of people on this board with coated valves in their SOHC 4 on one hand.  Most of us are using 40 year old parts that are still in serviceable condition.

The fact that cutting equipment exists that can produce a valve sealing surface where lapping is not needed doesn't change the fact that lapping is beneficial to renew 40 year old parts- old methods for old machines.

You said it best- just because someone insists, doesn't mean that it's true.

Offline KJ790

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2012, 05:44:22 AM »
Are you a "top engine builder?"

Depends on what you call a "top engine builder". If you mean do I work for a formula 1 team or JGR in engine development, then no. If you mean have I built engines for professional racing, then yes. I also have 2 degrees in mechanical engineering and am the third generation of professional engine builder.

However, that bears no importance on the subject at hand, as I have not mentioned my own work once. I acknowledge that I am a small time engine builder and thus try to build off of the research and development that others have done. Guys like Larry Widmer, David Vizard, Phil Burkhart, Hendricks racing, Roush Racing, Ron Hamp, Jesse Williams, etc... all have much more experience and much more research and development money than I do. When all of those guys discovered that lapping was useless and quit doing it in the mid 1970's, I think that says something. When all of the manufacturers followed suit in the 1980's, I think that says even more.

You can probably count the number of people on this board with coated valves in their SOHC 4 on one hand.  Most of us are using 40 year old parts that are still in serviceable condition.

Again, the fact that a valve is coated or not does not matter. Coated valves were only brought up because of the fact that their development was completely based on the discovery 40 years ago that standard steel valves did not need to be lapped. Today's automobiles still use uncoated steel valves just like the SOHC4 engines, and many of those engines are still based off of the original designs from the 1950's, yet most manufacturers have not lapped these valves in decades.

The fact that cutting equipment exists that can produce a valve sealing surface where lapping is not needed doesn't change the fact that lapping is beneficial to renew 40 year old parts- old methods for old machines.

Beneficial is a subjective term. Lapping can help seal valves that are leaking in some cases, but at what expense? If you are lapping two worn surfaces together then you are not correcting any wear or cupping, you are just making a band-aid. While the valve may seal, it's life has been shortened. To some this may not matter (apparently this community does not care), but to me engine performance and longevity are key.

Everyone jumps down my throat saying that I am wrong, but not a single person has provided any sort of information or research demonstrating that lapping is necessary other than "APE does it so it must be necessary". I think the fact that Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Ford, GM, Chrystler, etc have not lapped a valve in decades and their engines all seem to run just fine shows that lapping is not a necessity.

If I knew that I would become public enemy #1 for suggesting a technique less than 50 years old I never would have chimed in. Just because an engine is old does't mean that the same old techniques that were marginal back then need to be used. The rest of the world has moved on.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 05:49:14 AM by KJ790 »
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2012, 06:13:05 AM »
I'm not going to read through ALL of this bs, but I will tell you this: When I dropped off my head at the machine shop, I brought them the original valves that I had coated in a thermal barrier on the top surface only. When I got it back, every valve and seat was assembled and you could see the blue dye that was used to make sure they had perfect mating surfaces. I don't know if they lapped the valves after the cut or not, but I'll tell you that blue dye is a straight give away that they took the time to make sure everything was perfect. I've lapped many valves in the past, but usually only after a rebuild where there were minimal valve leaks. If you have bad leaking valves, a lapping isnt going to fix it. Lapping is more of a precautionary thing done during an overhaul where the head isn't suspect as the cause of the original issue. I agree with KJ, when he says "engine performance and longevity are key". I'd rather predictable engine performance when the only thing between me and the ground is a pair of jeans and an unsatisfactory helmet.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2012, 06:22:28 AM »
From personal experience: you have a customer bring in a bike thats leaking oil, usually from the head gasket, and needs fixin on the cheap.You pop the head off, do the gasket and while you're at it, valve stem seals, decarb, and lap the valves, nail it back together and get it out the door.

Nothing wrong with that. Happy customer and an engine that will last longer than the customer will. And that's essentially what we're talking about here.

I've had and have mighty fine heads cut by professionals for personal projects. But that's not what's called for in every circumstance. I'd say not in most circumstances.
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Offline mycb750k6

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2012, 06:26:50 AM »
I had no idea this one would be so entertaining. I stole the bag from another equally entertaining thread.


Offline faux fiddy

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2012, 06:36:32 AM »
From personal experience: you have a customer bring in a bike thats leaking oil, usually from the head gasket, and needs fixin on the cheap.You pop the head off, do the gasket and while you're at it, valve stem seals, decarb, and lap the valves, nail it back together and get it out the door.

Nothing wrong with that. Happy customer and an engine that will last longer than the customer will. And that's essentially what we're talking about here.

I've had and have mighty fine heads cut by professionals for personal projects. But that's not what's called for in every circumstance. I'd say not in most circumstances.

We  used to say consistant with the existing structure  on the old house repairs.
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2012, 07:00:27 AM »
I think maybe the OP should take his cyl. head to a good M/C specific machine shop and see what they recommend after they spec it out...just to get another qualified choice.Let them make the judgement call and then stand behind the job. I think it would be good for USCG_C130 to search for the best place he can to help him make the best choice so his valves will seal excellent and tell him whether the valve guides are go or no go.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2012, 07:08:32 AM »
I have the absolute FINAL definitive absolute (did i say that?) video on the subject.  (Actually, its the comments that's the most enlightening)

Enjoy!   :D

 Couldn't find any comments on a 9 second video?
 'Spinning' a valve to lap it is ALWAYS wrong.
 You can see the radial groves produced in the  pics posted by OP.
 I think the seats are also way too wide which in effect lowers seat pressure.
Looks to me like seats are going to need cutting and a full set of new valves.
It may be camera angle but it also looks like the valve faces are no longer at 45 degrees?
No matter how 'light' a pressure you use you cannot prevent it.
There are valve lapping tools made to fit power drills, they oscillate about 80~90 deg rotation but you still have to lift and turn valve to redistribute lapping compound and prevent grooving.
When I used to lap valves many years ago,I found I had to set clearance around 0.001" larger than stock to let them bed in.
Personally, I haven't lapped valves for over 30 yrs (except for demonstration purposes as it was on curriculum)


« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 07:19:38 AM by crazypj »
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Offline MCRider

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2012, 07:19:15 AM »
I have the absolute FINAL definitive absolute (did i say that?) video on the subject.  (Actually, its the comments that's the most enlightening)

Enjoy!   :D

 Couldn't find any comments on a 9 second video?
My bad. You'll have to go to youTube itself to read the comments below the video. They're a hoot. Sounds just like this thread. To each their own.   :D
Click the "youTube" icon in the bottom right of the video to take you there.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2012, 07:22:59 AM »
I have the absolute FINAL definitive absolute (did i say that?) video on the subject.  (Actually, its the comments that's the most enlightening)

Enjoy!   :D

 Couldn't find any comments on a 9 second video?
My bad. You'll have to go to youTube itself to read the comments below the video. They're a hoot. Sounds just like this thread. To each their own.   :D
Click the "youTube" icon in the bottom right of the video to take you there.

Thanks,I'll go back and check
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Offline MCRider

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2012, 07:29:23 AM »
I have the absolute FINAL definitive absolute (did i say that?) video on the subject.  (Actually, its the comments that's the most enlightening)

Enjoy!   :D

 Couldn't find any comments on a 9 second video?
My bad. You'll have to go to youTube itself to read the comments below the video. They're a hoot. Sounds just like this thread. To each their own.   :D
Click the "youTube" icon in the bottom right of the video to take you there.

Thanks,I'll go back and check
Now I can't find the comments I saw either! Anyway, it was: thank you for that: oh no you can't do that; that will ruuin it; on no you're an idiot, it works just fine... on and on back and forth. It was funny.

Oh there they are, I was looking at the wrong video.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 07:32:24 AM by MCRider »
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Offline lucky

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2012, 04:36:27 PM »
The valve seat should have three distinct angles and then yo put blue dykem or magic marker on the seat after lapping you should see only one distinct shiny area on the valve seat and that is the sealing contact point.

Please watch this excellent video.   -LUCKY
Honda CB750 cafe SOHC4 Neway Valve Seat cutting.AVI
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:39:45 PM by lucky »

Offline lucky

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2012, 04:46:52 PM »
I made a video on how I lapped my valves, it's nothing special just the process described here

VIDEO went here.

Just use a pencil magnet, and the valve Keepers (not rings) will come right out and not fall on the floor.

Offline andrewk

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2012, 05:00:27 PM »
Quote
I have not mentioned my own work once.

That was kind of my point.

Quote
When all of those guys discovered that lapping was useless and quit doing it in the mid 1970's, I think that says something. When all of the manufacturers followed suit in the 1980's, I think that says even more.

Lapping wasn't always "useless" though.  Improvements in materials, manufacturing and methods are largely to credit for this process to cease being a normal operation.  I imagine most machine shops with a serdi type machine will produce a surface on the seats of any head that doesn't require lapping to seal- there's nobody here arguing against that.

Quote
Beneficial is a subjective term. Lapping can help seal valves that are leaking in some cases, but at what expense? If you are lapping two worn surfaces together then you are not correcting any wear or cupping, you are just making a band-aid. While the valve may seal, it's life has been shortened. To some this may not matter (apparently this community does not care), but to me engine performance and longevity are key.

Beneficial is indeed subjective.  If my engine will run another 20k on stock valves, guides, rings, etc, etc at the expense of .002 degrees off the valve seat, that's beneficial enough for me- in a "daily rider" the engine will not care. (different story for a max effort build)  I would say that correcting a compression issue (leaky valves) by lapping extends, rather than shortens the life of the valve.  After all, it was broken (leaky valves) and now it's not (valves seal). 

There is an inverse relationship between performance and longevity.  Those "top engine builders" aren't building engines to run 100k.  Street performance and competitive race performance are two different worlds- you'll never notice the "reduced valve life" on the street.  If you're building a max effort track bike, the game changes.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 05:11:25 PM by andrewk »

Offline andrewk

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2012, 05:07:38 PM »
And by all means- if you have the cash, go to a reputable machine shop, and get a good valve job done- your engine will thank you.

But if you're stuck with what you've got, 5 dollars in lapping compound and some careful work can renew the engines performance to as good as it ever was.

Offline USCG_C130

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Re: lapping made leaks worse!?!?!
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2012, 07:53:59 PM »
well tomorrow ill be calling around trying to find a good machine shop or motorcycle shop to recut my seats and check out my valves lets hope it wont cost me an arm and a leg, and i really hope i dont need to buy new valves. but well see what comes up tomorrow. if any one knows a good shop around my neck of the woods, that would be great!