Author Topic: CB550 Charging Problems  (Read 10332 times)

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Offline josuepdx

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CB550 Charging Problems
« on: March 01, 2014, 09:56:44 am »
Hi all,

I've got a 76 CB550 that isn't holding a charge, keeps dying after 25 miles or so of riding around town.

I've replaced the battery, then ran some preliminary tests.
•   Battery terminal check- 12.3 v
•   At idle-11.8 v
•   At 5,500-13.7 v

At idle, I should be at 12v, correct?
and at 5.5k I should be above 14?

These figures seem pretty close to stock, so why am I still getting problems? Damn thing died after 25 miles again. I can tell it's the battery dying because my turn signals start to go out and stop blinking right as the battery is on its dying breaths. Is there anyway to know what I should test from here to get a good diagnosis? If the reg/rec or stator were faulty, wouldn't I just be stuck at 12v.s?

I've been trying to check/clean terminal connections, but they all seem to be in good shape so far. Still no change.

Thanks.

Offline 750cafe

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2014, 10:27:18 am »
Have you cleaned all of the grounds and their mounts?
All of the wire connections in the harness?
Have you added a ground from the battery to frame? From engine to battery?

Eric
Is there anything more fun than riding? They are between your legs and are quiet when you turn them off.

Offline josuepdx

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2014, 10:41:20 am »
Have you cleaned all of the grounds and their mounts?
All of the wire connections in the harness?
Have you added a ground from the battery to frame? From engine to battery?

Eric

I checked nearly all of the connections in the harness. Then only ground I cleaned was the ground to the frame from the battery (which is also in contact with the engine) and then cleaned the ground connections on the ignition coils.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2014, 11:50:44 am »
Since you have not said otherwise, I can only assume your bike is a stock, unmodified CB550 F (or K).
With the lights on, the bike consumes about 120 Watts (10 amps) whenever the key is switched on.
The alternator makes about 150 Watts at 5000 RPM, but only about 50 Watts at idle RPM.  120-50 = 70 watts that must come from elsewhere, and by design, that is the battery, used as an electrical reservoir.

Wattage is voltage times current.  When the battery is expending power the voltage falls.  When it is being replenished (say 5000 RPM) the voltage rises commensurate with its state of charge level.  With no loads or connections a full battery reads 12.6 to 12.8 V.  When depleted the battery can easily fall below 10V.

If a battery is at 10 V, the rate that the voltage rises is dependent on the voltage and current applied to it.  Being a storage device, you never want to have rapid excursions of voltage seen at the terminals, or it would be useless, in operation.  We would like to see it at 12.8 V all the time and never vary.  But, that would be tantamount to perpetual motion, which ain't gonna happen.

In the case of the Cb550 the alternator excess power above bike loads is only about 30 Watts, or about 1-2 amps peak.  At this charge rate, a depleted battery can reach peak (14.5V) in about 10 hours of continuous 5000 rpm operation.  Along the charge path, you will see measured instances ranging from 10v to 14.5v, depending on what time you took the measurement in that 10 hour window.

For these reasons, charging system behavior is verified with a voltmeter, only when a known good, fully charged battery is installed in the system being checked.  This is so a good charging system can quickly peak charge a partially discharged battery without much time delay, in order to see if the system properly discontinues charging when the battery is peaked.  (Over voltage charging can damage the battery.)
Observing that the battery voltage falls during idle, is considered normal for this bike.  The shop manual voltage chart is actually misprinted, with the minus signs omitted (and the night/day assignment switched).  With the lights on and at idle, the current measurement is about -6A.  A good charged battery will show about 12V if it hasn't been allowed to discharge too far.

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.







Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline josuepdx

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2014, 03:14:49 pm »
TwoTired,

Bike is completely stock.

I'm in the process of going through these tests, and I'm getting between 1.2-1.4 ohms readings between the three yellow wires off of the stator. Spec is .35? What should these readings be telling me? The stator cover does look like its been down on that side before so maybe there's something fishy about it.

I also tested the field coil and got a reading of 4.7 ohms which is good. Spec is 4.5-5ohms. So I know I'm doing something right.

When testing resistance on the rectifier I got some interesting numbers.
On the Red/white side I got
4.6 ohms across all yellows.
On the Green side I got 30, 130, and .7 ohms across the yellows... 
I also tried reversing the test leads to see if my numbers would change. When I did it with the red/white wires, I wouldn't get any readings. When I did it with the green side, I would get the same numbers.

Thoughts?

Offline MoMo

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 03:51:03 pm »
Out of curiosity, have you checked to make sure the brake light is not stuck on.  I have seen that happen way too many times...Larry

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 04:39:44 pm »
TwoTired,

Bike is completely stock.

I'm in the process of going through these tests, and I'm getting between 1.2-1.4 ohms readings between the three yellow wires off of the stator. Spec is .35? What should these readings be telling me?

Probably that you aren't familiar with how to do a proper test.  Very low resistances are problematic to read on a standard meters with general purpose accuracy.  You must first check probe to probe resistance and note the reading.  This number is then subtracted to whatever you read on the yellows, as the resistance of the test leads is alos being measured.

Are all the yellow to yellow readings the same?  Have you checked yellow to engine case continuity?


The stator cover does look like its been down on that side before so maybe there's something fishy about it.
Could be, I suppose.  About the only way a stator goes bad is with physical trauma.  Very rare they self destruct on their own.

I also tested the field coil and got a reading of 4.7 ohms which is good. Spec is 4.5-5ohms. So I know I'm doing something right.
yes.


When testing resistance on the rectifier I got some interesting numbers.

On the Red/white side I got
4.6 ohms across all yellows.
On the Green side I got 30, 130, and .7 ohms across the yellows... 
I also tried reversing the test leads to see if my numbers would change. When I did it with the red/white wires, I wouldn't get any readings. When I did it with the green side, I would get the same numbers.

I don't know what meter you have.

Diodes conduct in one direction after they reach a certain voltage threshold.  Your meter needs to supply enough voltage to activate them.  This is usually on a diode test setting for modern meters.   The diode setting on many meters report the voltage drop across the test leads rather than the resistance, although I do have one which displays resistance.
Diodes usually drop about .7v when actually conducting, and about none when not conducting.  The probe polarity determines which way it conducts when activated.
Anyway, the rectifier is not tested across the yellows, but from red to each yellow and green to each yellow with both probe polarities.

It does seem you have skipped ahead in the diagnostic process, jumping over the battery charge and volt reading test per RPM.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline josuepdx

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 11:43:19 am »
I didn't jump ahead. I had just already done those initial steps and had posted the results in my original posting.

Battery 12.3 v
At idle-11.8 v
At 5,500-13.7 v
 I could go back and record all of the figures in between, but the point is that it never gets above 14 v. And it has had this dying problem for a while now. So this is a brand new battery in the bike and it still drained it. It may need a new battery at this point since it's been drained a couple times, but I don't want to replace it again, just to have the charging system destroy another battery.


Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 12:20:13 pm »
I didn't jump ahead. I had just already done those initial steps and had posted the results in my original posting.
No you didn't.  12.3 V is a depleted or bad battery.

The following run test voltages you posted are near meaningless (except to show that it IS capable of charging the battery), since the battery's charge state dominates whatever the charging system is doing.

Battery 12.3 v
At idle-11.8 v
At 5,500-13.7 v

I could go back and record all of the figures in between, but the point is that it never gets above 14 v. And it has had this dying problem for a while now. So this is a brand new battery in the bike and it still drained it. It may need a new battery at this point since it's been drained a couple times, but I don't want to replace it again, just to have the charging system destroy another battery.
The point is, you jumped to conclusions due to improper testing process.   "Never" is a long long time and you didn't run the alternator nearly long enough to prove your "never" statement/assumption.  A 10 second meter reading hardly qualifies a "never" statement when it takes the charging system 10 hours to recharge a depleted battery.

The chart below indicates that 12.3V is a battery charged to about 60% capacity.  The charging system can't make a battery in such a state reach 14.5V until it is restored to 100%

I don't care if the battery IS new, it can be drained, as you have already proven.  If you run the engine at 5000 RPM long enough, the battery may indeed reach 14.5V when it eventually peaks.  I expect about 5 hours at 5000 rpm should do it. 

I recommend you fully charge the battery from an off-bike charger, let the battery rest unconnected for two hours, and then report the battery and system voltages with the machine running as explained in the Verification checks I posted previously.

If your charging system proves up to spec.  Either you aren't running the alternator fast enough to overcome the system loads, or the system loads have been increased beyond what Honda intended.

Clearly, your reported 11.8V shows the battery depleting.  And 13.7V shows the battery accepting charge.  One of the benefits of the multi rpm check is to find the break point RPM where the battery transitions from depleting and charging.  Short of adding a voltmeter to the instrument cluster, the RPM will then tell you while you are riding whether the battery is charging or depleting.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline josuepdx

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 03:42:03 pm »
Awesome! This is what I needed to hear. I'm no electrical pro, so this is always a learning experience. Thanks for the thorough walk through, I really appreciate it. Sitting on the tender now.

I was digging around and noticed that the headlamp is a 50/60w headlamp. Isn't stock 40/55? Think this would make a big difference in the bike's ability to charge? Especially with just small, around town riding?

Also, I'm doing my tests with a Craftsman multimeter.

Offline MoMo

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 06:13:04 pm »
yes, the headlight could be too much draw

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 06:17:28 pm »
I was digging around and noticed that the headlamp is a 50/60w headlamp. Isn't stock 40/55?
Pretty sure stock is 40/50 watts.[/quote]

Think this would make a big difference in the bike's ability to charge? Especially with just small, around town riding?

I don't know about "big" a difference it is for your operation.  Certainly more power is sucked by a higher wattage system load, making it more difficult or delaying battery charge.  It depends on when or if your average RPM operation allows exceeding the current draw.  This is why you need to determine the "break point" RPM.

Another factor is possible resistance loss from switches, connectors, and fuse clip losses.  Energy sent through these losses is wasted and is subtracted from useful alternator output.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline josuepdx

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2014, 10:53:07 pm »

Another factor is possible resistance loss from switches, connectors, and fuse clip losses.  Energy sent through these losses is wasted and is subtracted from useful alternator output.


Funny that you say fuse clip losses...     ;D
You mayyyyyy have called it. I hope.

I was putting everything back together a few days ago and when I went to turn the key, I got nothing! :o I frantically went through the bike and tested the ignition switch since I thought maybe that was the problem. Turns out that I had a bunch of corrosion on my fuse clips and that the fuse wiggled just a tiny bit when I was moving everything around so that the corrosion prevented it from making good enough contact to run any juice through the bike.

I went and cleaned up the contacts with some sanding paper, put the fuses back in, and BAM! Everything lit up just like it should have. I'm wondering if maybe this built up corrosion would have been what was adding extra resistance and making my battery drain/not charge? I guess we'll see...

Anyways, I recharged the battery a few days ago. Checked it today and it's at 12.8v. Tomorrow I'll get it properly warmed up and run the charging test through the RPMs and see what happens.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 10:54:38 pm by josuepdx »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2014, 12:31:15 am »
The alternator needs a magnetic field to convert rotational energy to electrical energy.  Both rotation speed and the strength of the magnetic field relate to output power.
The strength of the magnetic field is determined by the voltage sent to the field coil via the V regulator.  But the regulator can only pass the voltage it receives on its input (black wire).  If there is significant voltage loss between the battery terminal and the Voltage regulator,  the magnetic field will be weak, and thus the alternator output will be weak as well.  The Voltage regulator gets it's voltage via the fuse clips, the key switch and various connectors along the pathway.  For example, if there are 10 components in the power routing path, and they each lose 0.1 volts, the regulator gets a volt less that what the battery can provide, and can't drive the alternator to full output capacity at any RPM.
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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2014, 05:01:39 am »
Have you looked at the back (rear) side of your fuse box? With the  corrosion you had on the front it could have got hot enough to do damage on the other side so take a peek just two screws.

Offline Duanob

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Re: CB550 Charging Problems
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2014, 12:35:08 pm »
Have you looked at the back (rear) side of your fuse box? With the  corrosion you had on the front it could have got hot enough to do damage on the other side so take a peek just two screws.

you beat me to it Black. I have the same bike. My charging problems were from two of the main wires at the main plug that were fried ( not the battery cables). they looked fine on the outside and actually didn't have a lot of resistance so the Ohm meter didn't pick them up. I followed this FAQ and found both wires by following the diagnosis. Replaced them and now it charges fine.

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/FAQ.html

Unfortunately I had already bought a new Voltage reg. and a good used stator which I didn't need either.

Also the best way to test a battery is to check voltage when trying to use the starter. If DCV gets below 10V it's time for a new battery. These batteries are pretty small. Couple that with a weak charging system, they just don't last all that long. My cuurnet one is an AGM and seems to be doing a lot better than the last two wet acid.
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