Author Topic: Crank Case Venting Options?  (Read 8499 times)

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Offline slikwilli420

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Crank Case Venting Options?
« on: January 12, 2018, 11:39:27 am »
In my quest for more power, I have stumbled on another item that I am trying to learn more about, creating vacuum or zero crankcase pressure. The benefits seem clear, which include crisper throttle response, more power and reduced oil leaks. The concepts seems equally simple which is to attache a PCV-type one way valve to the only outlet (blocking all others) or to draw a slight vacuum using exhaust velocity.

The PCV route seems to have some nay-sayers and plenty of believers, of course all depending on setup and which valve is purchased. Valves can be cheap and they can also cost upwards of $100. Some claim to show real HP gains on they dyno, while others are more butt dyno related claims.

Here is one of the more well regarded valves out there that I found:
http://www.et-performance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=87

The second option seems to be one that has tons of merit as there appears to be many racing outfits using something similar. The idea of using the exhaust velocity to draw a vacuum on the crank case seems legitimate and very interesting.

Here is a kit that was mentioned several times in some searching I have done:
http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1527_1533_1340

Either is simple enough to install and both are relatively inexpensive to try, but what are thoughts on each?

For my particular application, I am thinking about incorporating the exhaust kit on my racer, blocking all other vents and drawing straight off the crank case vent directly to the exhaust (where on the exhaust is TBD).

Has anyone tried this and what are thoughts?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 12:02:28 pm »
You can just install the PCV system from the F0-F3/K6/7/8 bikes and get the lowered crankcase pressure.
;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 12:24:00 pm »
In cases like this improvements are measured in degrees, but it's important. I use an XS piece.

Offline RAZZ

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 01:19:56 pm »
I cant remember who, but some one was talking about makeing gloryholes in the block like modern engines


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Offline bwaller

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 01:57:09 pm »
For a different reason, but also very important.

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 02:10:40 pm »
Hopefully different glory holes than what I know of? Haha

Are you talking about magic windows in the upper case between cylinder pairs? Already planning on that based on comments from Captain in Bill's thread.
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Offline cbr954

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 03:34:47 pm »
I am looking at doing an electric vacuum pump and catch can setup on my drag bike.   Just trying to find a vacuum pump that will fit the bill for a bike motor.   On a pure street bike I think a PCV system would be the most reliable.
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Offline POPS 911

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 05:13:33 pm »
Go to you local car junk yard and buy a old Camaro EPA Vacuum pump they put on motor to pump air into exhaust to meet the standards. Hook it up to the breather outlet with correct hose size and wire the 12v pump into the hot key line [ or a flip switch you can turn on when ready to race ]. Pro stock drag bikes use a PAUL GAST PUMP that cost big $$$$$. Some say to turn the oil seals around to not cause leaks [we never did and had no leaks.]  I'll bring one with me to MAN CUP in 2017.  I use to buy them for 10-15 dollars like brand new.
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Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 05:23:10 pm »
Electric pump sounds good but I have no charging system and don't want to waste juice on running a pump. Any experience with a mechanical system like I have shown?
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 07:23:32 pm »
Have you considered also installing windage trays? More work, but they were important in the hotrod midget racers I knew who constantly ran 12k RPM with the CB750 (sans trans).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 08:27:08 pm »
Have you considered also installing windage trays? More work, but they were important in the hotrod midget racers I knew who constantly ran 12k RPM with the CB750 (sans trans).

Talk to me. I'm pretty capable and anything that helps get oil where it should be is something I'm in for. Pictures, explanations, I'm all ears.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
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AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline simon#42

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2018, 02:55:38 am »
a windage tray is to stop oil going where it shouldn't

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2018, 05:09:33 am »
Pictures of one applied to a 750 engine would be very helpful.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
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AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2018, 07:06:46 am »
Windage tray i's basically a curved sheet to keep oil off flywheels. Fine stainless steel mesh also works but you need to be able to support it.
A scraper bar with a Teflon 'wiper' may be 'better' with an oil jet on underside of piston crown plus a baffle to stop oil getting onto gear shafts under real hard acceleration, (when it sloshes to rear of crankcase) The original oil feed to shafts should be plenty good enough.  There are plenty of 'holes' where fixtures could be fitted, starter drive hole, oil filler, etc. Small air pump and a couple of reed valves would probably be easiest, after all, the more weight you ave the more you have to accelerate. Not a problem on a long race (Florida to Alaska  ;D) but an issue in 1/8 to 1/4 mile. High vacuum will allow seals to flow air from 'outside' so getting balance right would be important. Exhaust scavenger line is probably lightest option with reed valves added to crankcase so any pressure can vent - at various rpm you may get flow reversals. I didn't believe it until  I saw a guy' top up' an 'original' Triumph Trident through the breather pipe, instead of 'blowing bubbles' it sucked down a quart of oil  :o
 If you want to read more, any of the V-8 Chevy 'tuning' manuals can explain things, particularly those 'updated' in the last 10 yrs or so. Checking dealer new model bulletins can also be helpful, air movement in crankcase was a big talking point from about 2004~2010 plus various other things that were done to help keep things cool and provide more 'free' power. Largish holes between cylinders are way more helpful with un-iblock motors, increasing hole size by 1~3mm over a few seasons allowed higher power outputs without much change in fuel consumption, sometimes getting better rather than worse
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 08:44:29 am by crazypj »
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Offline simon#42

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 11:30:20 am »
i dont think there is any point using one in a dry sump engine

Offline bwaller

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 11:54:56 am »
i dont think there is any point using one in a dry sump engine
 

Exactly. Running so much vacuum that seals leak is a waste as well. From what I understand modern GP engines did use individual pumps, but individually sealed. Man, don't over think this, pick something proven. If you "window" then round and smooth corners like a bellmouth.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 01:53:11 pm »
In this engine (CB750 SOHC4), there are 2 places where a [set of] these baffles works and makes sense. Underneath each rod, as is found inside the CB160 and CB72/77 Twins, a small flat sheet metal plate, the width and length of the area, minus about 1cm (that's Pops Yoshimura talk) overall size, traps oil that flings off the rod and crank weights. It falls below the plate and will not get splashed back up at it, so the plate can have holes in it, or like Bwaller says, it can be mesh. It is this splashing action that slows down the rod as it comes back down for its next swing by, particularly at the speeds these engines operate.

In some of the older small Honda engines, like the [rare] 90cc and 125cc hi-po twins (and the famous 50cc Four from the early 1960s), there are/were such windage trays in the tranny, too, so the splashing oil did not drag on the spinning gears. In the 750 this isn't quite so important because it is a dry sump in that area, but in the smaller SOHC4 engines it DOES make a difference, if hard to implement. That's not to say there IS an area where it can matter in the Big Four, though...more in a minute...

To make one, you usually must weld some small bungs into the bottom of each lower crankcase well, not a simple task. There just isn't a good way to try to do it otherwise, as any thru-holes there will weep oil in the future. In the midget-car racer engines, this was how it was done: each rod well got 4 bungs with 1/4-20 threaded holes and socket-head cap screws with safety wire holes in them, holding down the windage plates. Since the transmission was cut off of these engines (the oil pump was run off the camshaft with some other mechanical trickery) they did not use such a tray under the countershaft gears, but in the 750 bike [whole] engine this is where it can help. This one can be accomplished by making a sheet metal plate in the shape of the oil pan, with slots and holes cut thru it to clear the various obstacles and bolt in with an extra oil pan gasket: it is mostly only trying to clear the 2 larger inner gears. This was done on a couple of roadracers I remember from my 'circuit days' in the early 1970s. ;)

In the 750, there are a couple of places where Honda implemented this already. While I am sure their intent is to prevent oil weepage in those areas, it also reduces 'drafts' and oil splash that creates drag. You can recognize it by looking at the tranny cover gasket, with that big flap of paper surface that separates the moving parts from the outer joint seal area, and on the back side of the alternator's gasket where the whizzing starter gear could otherwise fling the oil against the joint at the top right corner of the alternator cover. In some other Japanese bike engines I have seen (Suzuki comes to mind), the manufacturer used similar gasket treatments to reduce airflows and oil splashing both to improve oil retention (it stops oil misting) and improve upon crankweight and/or rod 'drag' due to flying oil droplets.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline scottly

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2018, 08:43:53 pm »
In my quest for more power, I have stumbled on another item that I am trying to learn more about, creating vacuum or zero crankcase pressure. The benefits seem clear, which include crisper throttle response, more power and reduced oil leaks.
I don't know how zero pressure or vacuum could possibly improve throttle response, and the increases at high RPM WFO in power may be less than claimed. I would recommend a free flowing vent system over the exhaust siphon system. Make sure the catch can vent has a large enough flow to match those from the engine vents. 
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 06:29:15 am »
i dont think there is any point using one in a dry sump engine
Yes there is, tests show a partial vacuum can help power output.
 The easiest thing to do with a dry sump is just fit oversize return pump. Drag race cars were banned from using too many 'oil pumps' for that reason, whether it was real or perceived? (after all, way easier to fit a higher output pump in the first place than an extra modular stage) I never got involved with it but people I worked with have and explained a bunch of stuff
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Offline scottly

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 08:10:51 pm »
i dont think there is any point using one in a dry sump engine
Simon, I assume you are referring to windage trays? If so, I agree.
Matt, one could very simply test the effects of negative crankcase pressure on the dyno, using a shop-vac to apply the suction to the existing vent tubes. 
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Offline bear

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 02:53:25 am »
Been there, done that quite some years ago when we where young and keen Scottly.
Tested on a dyno trying different levels of negative crank pressure.
Result...Bugger all ;D

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Offline Captain

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 03:36:52 am »
Hopefully different glory holes than what I know of? Haha

Are you talking about magic windows in the upper case between cylinder pairs? Already planning on that based on comments from Captain in Bill's thread.

 What it is and looks like........

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 04:04:32 am »
I understand what Bear says. I played with plug indexing on the dyno and couldn't find a gain. However I still think it's good building practice to eliminate case pressure and index plugs. Just part of the process.

Offline simon#42

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 06:37:52 am »
yes scottly I was talking about windage trays , but like bear I have never seen negative crankcase pressure make any difference to power on the dyno .

Offline Don R

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Re: Crank Case Venting Options?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 10:07:26 am »
We have run the exhaust style vacuum fittings on our race car. They do work, Star racing pioneered the use of vacuum pumps on their drag bikes and the Star vacuum pumps are popular with car racers also. We run a belt drive Moroso 4 vane improved vac pump on our drag car. It's worth 30 hp on a 1,000 hp engine. We use a relief valve and limit vacuum to 7 inches at idle. Ring stability is a plus with a vacuum pump on a big engine but on such a small bore I don't know if ring flutter is as much of an issue.
 Our vacuum relief valve is currently on a valve cover but I think it is better to put it just ahead of the pump so you aren't pulling outside air through the engine. With an exhaust vacuum powered setup or possibly the electric smog pump a relief isn't needed.
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