Author Topic: Carb guru needed  (Read 2732 times)

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Offline greenjeans

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Carb guru needed
« on: March 10, 2007, 08:01:38 AM »
'76 CB 550   just tore down and cleaned the carbs thouroghly.   I will be running pod filters (bike didn't come w/ airbox - going cafe style anyway)  Currently has older S & S 4 into 1 pipes.  - Can't find any info on then.  Considering Mac 4 into 1 set up.    What combination of jet & needle would be a good starting point?  Also, on those CB550's is the main jet removeable ?  Can it be drilled?  (I have a very ggod set of indexed / numbered drill that I have access to)  And finally,  are needles different diameters or are they the same, only positioned differently with the grooves on the base w/ the little circlips?  Thanks in advance.
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Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2007, 08:23:53 AM »
i will tell you like i was told ...."all of the info you seek is in other posts, do a search, find your answers "

Offline jdpas29

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2007, 08:50:02 AM »
i recommend getting an airbox unless you're a glutton for punishment.  pods are the devil.
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Offline greenjeans

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2007, 11:00:33 AM »
Unfortunately, I am a glutton for punishment.  Pods offer the look that I 'm going for.  It's been a while since I've rebuilt anyting so I'm a bit rusty...  it doesn't help that I left my carb manual at work.  I have dial-up, so searching can be quite traumatizing.  I know that someone has done the exact things I'm doing now... just trying to get a good starting point so I don't have to wait until Monday to go over my carb specs   etc.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 11:17:13 AM »
Maybe someone should come up with some pod filters that flow the same rate as the stock airbox so there's no need to rejet.  Probably a decent bit of money in it if they could be easily produced.  I know that would completely negate any possible "benefits" of the pods, but it seems like a majority of people switching to pods are mainly doing it for the looks anyway. 

Offline mlinder

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2007, 11:48:07 AM »
I don't mthink it's so much the change in volume that makes pods a pain, mostly its the changes in turbulence and air pressure around each pod changing differently.
An air box will act as sort of an equalizer in air volume around each carb intake.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2007, 12:17:27 PM »
Begin with knowing what you currently have. A 76 CB550 could be a F model or a K model.  The carbs could be set up as 022A, 087A, or 069A.  The set up determines what internal parts they have and how they were adjusted by the factory.

ALL the set ups sized the fuel metering devices inside to flow properly with the barometric pressure drop in the carb throats provided by the stock air filter arrangement.  There is no Pod filter offering that duplicates this pressure drop.  And, there isn't even any consistency between brands of pod filters.   Therefore, tuning to changes are done on an individual case by case basis.

In the FAQ you will find a chart of the known adjustment and internal parts changes among the different carbs available to the CB500/550.
This is a starting point.  The next step is to determine the effects of the changes you've made to the air induction and exhaust restriction has had on the combustion needs of the motor.  This is done either with a Dynomometer and instrumentation.  Or, with a test track of some sort and frequent "readings" of the combustion spark plug deposits.  The deposits tell how the engine is running with the last changes made to the carb adjustments.  It is a reiterative process, test run, read, adjust, and repeat until the plugs yeild the correct color with performance, and throttle response either meeting the driver's goals or he tires of the process and accepts the way it currently runs as good enough.

There are three aspects of carb fuel metering to be addressed in response to engine "breathing" changes.  They are interactive to some extent. But, dominate at certain throttle position settings.
1) The idle, slow or pilot circuit.  Active from idle to 1/8 throttle.  This is a separate parallel circuit from the main and throttle valve fuel delivery circuit (discussed later). It is comprised of the idle, slow or pilot jet orifice size and the pilot or Idle air bleed adjustment screw.  (alternately an Idle Mixture Screw in some carbs.)
Depending on the individual carb, the adjustment range may be limited, requiring changes to the idle, slow or pilot jet orifice size to achieve proper behavior.  The extra tricky bit with the 550 carbs is that they have no enrichment pump to compensate for the rapid loss of vacuum when the slides are opened quickly.  Therefore, these carbs are adjusted sufficiently rich to achieve adequate throttle response with moderate changes in throttle position.

2)  The throttle valve controls mixture from about 1/8 to 3/4 throttle positions.  It is comprised of the slide needle, and the slide needle jet orifice.  The taper, needle width, and depth position in the jet orifice determine the fuel delivery at the various throttle positions.

3)  The Main jet determines the maximum required fuel draw required at 3/4 to Wide Open Throttle (WOT).  The slide's throtte valve is withdrawn from the throtle valve orifice to present less restriction to fuel flow than the main orifice.

Now it gets more complicated:
Float bowl fuel level also effects mixtures throughout the throttle range as the fuel has to be drawn up into the carb throat bore.  The longer the lift, the more pressure is required to make the lift.  Given the same pressure, less fuel is delivered for a longer lift.

Emulsion tubes:
Both the idle, slow, or pilot circuit and the Throttle valve/Main circuits have emulsion tubes.  These tubes premix air into the fuel creating a froth that is more easily drawn into the carb throats and more thoroughly atomized after throat insertion.  These emulsion tubes have cross drilled holes for air instertion. The number and size of these holes determine how much air is frothed into the fuel delivery mix and this also effects the ultimate fuel mixture delivered to the engine.  The factory used different emulsion tubes in setting up the carbs for different machines.

There are also air jets that supply air for the emulsion tubes.  These are usually drilled metering orifices in the carb bodies and is part of the set up configuration stamped on the carb body. 

One final note about why many of the above metering orfices have to be readjusted.
The partial vacuum in the carb throats is a barometric pressure change in the carb throats relative to the surrounding atmosphere.  The depth of the pressure change determine the rate of flow though metering orfices, as the surrounding atmosphere pushes the fuel into the carb throats as it tries to equalize the pressure difference.  Nature abhors a vacuum and will rush to fill it, using everything in it's path to do so.  In this case, fuel is part of what is in the path.
The intake stroke of the engine creates this partial vacuum.  Resistance to the inward flow deepens the partial vacuum.  The intake runner, carburetor venturi, slide, and air filter media all present resistance to the air flow and thus the deepening of the vacuum in the carb throat.  In this way a filter that presents less restriction to airflow does not increase demand for fuel from the engine.  However, it makes the existing fuel metering orifices deliver less fuel.  Increasing the orifice size is a compensatory measure.

Honda engineers determined all the settings in the carb to work properly with the engine's breathing charateristics, exhaust, and intake restriction.  Change these and you must find new settings for the changes you've made.  Changing air filters is not like changing the color of the bike.  If you don't enjoy the engineering set and adjust process, get the stock air box arangement, set to book values, and enjoy the ride.  Otherwise, be prepared to tinker for a good while before focusing on ride enjoyment.

Cheers,


Unless I hear objections, I may make a variation of this post available for a FAQ submission.  The subject certainly comes up often enough...






Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2007, 01:43:21 PM »
Unless I hear objections, I may make a variation of this post available for a FAQ submission.  The subject certainly comes up often enough...
yes ...yes it does

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2007, 01:44:38 PM »

Unless I hear objections, I may make a variation of this post available for a FAQ submission.  The subject certainly comes up often enough...


Good idea and it would be welcome.
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Offline Jim F

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2007, 02:50:49 PM »
is the motor stock?
If it is then you can start with 1 size larger than stock on your pilots
raise your needle 1 place to richen your mid range
and raise your mains 2 sizes

all of this will get you in the ball park
but check your plugs after the carb mods and they will tell you if your rich lean or just right

a dyno is the best though

good luck
Jim
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Offline Jim F

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2007, 03:00:54 PM »
is the motor stock?
If it is then you can start with 1 size larger than stock on your pilots
raise your needle 1 place to richen your mid range
and raise your mains 2 sizes

all of this will get you in the ball park
but check your plugs after the carb mods and they will tell you if your rich lean or just right

a dyno is the best though

good luck
Jim
didn't read twotireds thread but never mind the one that I just read
he just gave you carb 101

good luck
2002 RC51 1000 (SP2)
1983 GS1100EC Suzuki
2002 998 Dukati (Customers Bike)
1992 KTM500 2 stroke
1975 CB750/836 Honda
1978 GS750/840 Suzuki

Wayne Grauel

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2007, 03:10:08 PM »
FAQ that one  WELL DONE...   I like to book mark stuff I find and still find myself answering questions...

You put a lot of time in that and for all of us who don't know Jack... your efforts are really appreciated.

Does the same hold true for the 750K8???
--------------------------------------------------------------

What you did was what a forum is all about.  I certainly look stuff up but if they actively FAQ's well written posts like this one it would make searching a lot easier.

I've had the typical "look it up"  post and it makes a new person feel not welcome.

And I do know how to run a search engine but you can literally spend hours if not days combing through material that may not even be what you're looking for.. when someone as gracious as you steps up to the plate to really be a help.

It was not my question  but like I said.. I have felt a more than a little out of place sometimes when asking a question and there is barely a reply - or worse, some smart ass one liner. -  while someone else could post some picture of some trashed bike they found somewhere and there are a hundred replies...  (even though they are funny...)

but you see what I mean - so for all of us out there who are trying... Thank you!!!

Wayne
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 03:18:05 PM by Wayne Grauel »

Offline aptech77

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2007, 03:11:01 PM »
is the motor stock?
If it is then you can start with 1 size larger than stock on your pilots
raise your needle 1 place to richen your mid range
and raise your mains 2 sizes

all of this will get you in the ball park
but check your plugs after the carb mods and they will tell you if your rich lean or just right

a dyno is the best though

good luck
Jim
didn't read twotireds thread but never mind the one that I just read
he just gave you carb 101

good luck


+2

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2007, 03:41:43 PM »
FAQ that one  WELL DONE...   I like to book mark stuff I find and still find myself answering questions...

You put a lot of time in that and for all of us who don't know Jack... your efforts are really appreciated.

Thanks

Does the same hold true for the 750K8???

For the most part, yes.  That's why I'll have to add a bit more and possibly reword for the FAQ.  The above post was directed toward the 500/550.  The early 750 carbs work the same way as the 550s, as do the 400s, 350s and early 650s.   But, obviously, these carbs will have different set up stamping numbers and different internal part details.  In 77, the 750 carbs added accelerator pumps to force fuel into the intake runners when the throttle is opened and the partial vacuum is suddenly lost.  These carbs leaned the idle mixture to placate the EPA, which also destroyed the throttle response.  The accelerator pump restored (and likely improved) the throttle response over the earlier carbs.  I confess, though, I haven't worked on the earlier 750 carbs.  Though the shop manual is pretty clear that they behave and operate in the same way that the 550 carbs do.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline greenjeans

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 12:21:44 AM »
I have poured through the FAQ section and have done numerous searches, and I've found some great information & I'll have to admit, most of it is over my head.  I have a pretty firm handle on tearing things down / cleaning / replacing things when there's really only "ONE" way to put them back together...  with carbs I am at a loss - there are just too many factors that can make choosing a starting point a little overwhelming.  I was just hoping that somebody had done a bit of the leg work for me.  I always forget to add that my 550 is an "F" model and should have noted that I'm a bit on the fence on which pods to use, although I'm leaning toward the K&Ns.  I do appreciate all the help offered here and I realize that there is a FAQ section so I guess I 'll try to be a bit more patient with my questions.
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 12:47:29 AM »
If you think carbs are a #$%*.....wait till you go to wire up non-stock handlebar controls. I'm in the middle of grafting 76-78 Yamaha 650 controls to my 75 750K and I'll tell you what........I'd rather be rebuilding 4 sets of carbs than trying to figure out how some of this wiring does its thing!!! Carbs really aren't that bad. Just be gentle,organized,thorough........look at as much info as you can find on the internet,this site, and any manuals you can get your meathooks on. Send up a flare if you have any questions.
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Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Carb guru needed
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2007, 08:11:52 AM »
I always forget to add that my 550 is an "F" model and should have noted that I'm a bit on the fence on which pods to use, although I'm leaning toward the K&Ns.  I do appreciate all the help offered here and I realize that there is a FAQ section so I guess I 'll try to be a bit more patient with my questions.
one thing not mentioned in the FAQs is that with F model some pods wont fit in the frame, when you buy the pods make sure the overall lenth is  around 2 1/2" ... i can tell for sure the Emgo's dont fit the F model (ask Doug id) i think the k&n ones come in a 2 1/2" version.   
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 10:44:36 PM by spikeybike »