Author Topic: What now? Idle "hover"  (Read 14885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kevin400F

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2010, 04:14:17 AM »
Did you connect all the sync gages to a common vacuum source to assure they all read equally?  In the "engine" side pic, carb #3 slide is raised higher than the others, a lot more than a normal "idle" position.  These pics are before synchronizing and attempting to set idle, right?

How about pulling the carbs off the bike when it is exhibiting the "high sticking idle" issue, and shooting some clear pics of the slide positions from the engine side?

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2010, 04:34:47 AM »
 Kevin, I bench synched the carbs before putting them on the bike. I've had them on and off three or four times now. Only once did I have to re-synch them by vacuum readings once they were on the bike. They were dead on all times but once. That one time, there were only minor adjustments to be made.
 The openings you see in the pics were just sitting on the bench after the rebuild but before synch.
 I tried swapping the hoses from side to side. Moving the gauges that were on #1 and 2 to #3 and 4 and vice versa. Tried moving the hoses around from carb to carb. The vacuum readings stay the same.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline haill

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 319
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2010, 04:54:54 AM »
Have you checked your valves/tappets for clearance, if set too tight can cause this condition

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2010, 05:07:00 AM »
Have you checked your valves/tappets for clearance, if set too tight can cause this condition

 I can check them again, but I gave this bike a complete tune up after pulling it out of a barn where it had sat for 28+ years.
 The valves were adjusted and I have less than 200 miles of ride time on the bike and maybe another hour or hour and  a half of run time on the centerstand while doing tuning.
 No unusual valve noise or anything. Bike sounds like a sewing machine and runs very smooth other than this issue.

 Another note. I have an IR temp gun and I don't get any unusual readings on anything. Exhaust pipes, cylinders, intake manifolds, carbs, etc. The center two cylinders run a little warmer, obviously, but only a few degrees and even to each other. Nothing to indicate that one cylinder or carb is functioning differently than the rest.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline chickenman_26

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
    • Motorcycle Consumer News
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2010, 07:36:03 AM »
Are you certain that the carb throats are fully seated in the manifold rubbers? There was a member here a while back with similar issues who swore they were fully seated. But when he posted pics, it was clear that they weren't.

Stu
MCN DTF

Offline joesmotos

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2010, 07:38:38 AM »
This might be a silly suggestion but have you tried disconnecting the throttle cables from the carbs then started it?
Sometimes if theyre not adjusted correctly or have a slight tight spot in them they will hold the slides open ever so slightly..
MIght want to just try it..operate the carbs manually with no cables hooked up..

Offline domer

  • I got a bridge for sale, and it was built by a
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 902
  • everything is better with a bag of weed!
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2010, 08:21:32 AM »
just a thought, cause i am by no means an expert... but i seem to remember somebody with this problem that had used a pry bar to remove the carbs from the bike and ever so slightly dented the carb bodies causing the slides to hang up. took a while to figure it out too.

Offline gregk

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 558
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2010, 09:38:11 AM »
Scott

i have a similiar problem with a garage find 76 550.  The rpm will rise from an idle and 'hang" at about 2500rpm.  The bike has 2548 miles from new.  I also have had the carbs off several times, gone thru the tune-up sequence, etc, with no improvement.  I have 4 CB Honda's in the garage and am familiar with these bikes.   i am following this thread with a vested interest. 

greg
I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2010, 12:33:43 PM »
 I have several carburetor guides; Dell'Orto, Weber, Mikuni, etc. (I've been into air cooleed VW's for a while). They all have trouble shooting lists. "If this happens, do this, If this is happening, try this", etc.
  I'm not experiencing any of those type symptoms and anything in the guides will not cure the problem.

 I, personally, feel it's advance related. But my buddy, who's been through the advance/ignition does not. We're still trouble shooting and checking things out. We shall see.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline w1sa

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 444
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2010, 07:33:12 AM »
Your origin pic of the vac gauges while running shows vacuums between 4.5'' and 5" Hg.

If the other ignition/valve/carb/tune-up values are close to spec.... you should expect to tune/sync the carbs closer to 8-9" Hg.(20-22cm), when the engine is properly warmed up.

Most people agree that the specific value of the sync vacs isn't as important as the balance condition, but (I think) if the vacuum level(s) are significantly lower (or higher) than spec., it will affect the proper idle/ running condition.




Offline markjenn

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 238
  • CB750K1, CBX, RC30
    • Whizmo and Gizmo
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2010, 08:05:57 AM »
On my CB750K1, I had similar symptoms that were driving me crazy.  Then I noticed that there was a key section in the K1 service manual supplement that said you had to be sure "rods" (which connect to the slides) have at least one thread showing above the adjuster lock nut before you attempt a sync.  Mine didn't and after I made this adjustment, my idle issues disappeared.

The 500/550 is probably different, but just in case....

I will weigh in that this doesn't sound like an ignition problem and 30-yo carbs are typically the weakest link.

- Mark

Offline Spanner 1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,092
  • CB 750 K0 ( always thought it was a K1!) + CB750K8
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2010, 09:03:43 AM »
I think the last poster Markjenn, is on to something, rings a bell for me too, so +1.
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2010, 11:21:25 AM »
Your origin pic of the vac gauges while running shows vacuums between 4.5'' and 5" Hg.

If the other ignition/valve/carb/tune-up values are close to spec.... you should expect to tune/sync the carbs closer to 8-9" Hg.(20-22cm), when the engine is properly warmed up.

Most people agree that the specific value of the sync vacs isn't as important as the balance condition, but (I think) if the vacuum level(s) are significantly lower (or higher) than spec., it will affect the proper idle/ running condition.

 And how do you do that? I, too, thought that the vacuum didn't really matter as long as they were all synched.
 How do you tune it to up the vacuum?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2010, 11:26:17 AM »
I think the last poster Markjenn, is on to something, rings a bell for me too, so +1.

 So, he's saying raise the slides, in other words? I don't have the bike at my house rightg now to take pics, but I have several threads showing on the adjusters. I'd say at least 3-4 threads showing above the adjuster nuts.

 I assume raising the slides a little more would create more vacuum, like w1sa is saying. Then just lower the idle with the adjustment screw, right?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2010, 11:48:39 AM »
 BTW, that's a generic automotive vacuum gauge set. I was told to just get the needles steady (not bouncing ) and set them all the same, as close as you can.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2010, 01:52:59 PM »
The engine provides more vacuum (lower pressure) when the slides are fully closed.
You can see this effect with your gauges.  Opening the throttle at idle, raising the slides, will cause the needles to move toward atmospheric pressure (zero reference on the dials).

Just get the vacuum readings even.  Absolute numbers don't mean much from a carb sync perspective.  If the actual vacuum readings are lower than book value, it's not because of the carbs.  The engine is responsible for making the vacuum when the piston falls and the valve lift and timing is correct.  This assumes the intake tract has sealed integrity from atmospheric pressure.
Not only will leaks there cause the pressure reading to be off, the air ingress will lean the mixture and likely raise the RPM.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2010, 02:04:08 PM »
 So this points back to a vacuum leak....So why can't I find anything? I've sprayed carb cleaner, WD40, starter fluid, etc., all around the head, the manifolds, the boots where the manifolds meet the carbs, the air mixture screws, the bushings where the linkage arms attach to the carb bodies, the screws in the manifolds for the vacuum ports, the carb tops...you name it. I can not make the idle rise, stumble or change at all.

 Let's say I wanted to try replacing the O-rings between the manifold and head. Anyone ever find something at Lowe's or a hardware store that works? I can get them quicker that way than ordering them. Just a thought.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 02:12:36 PM by Scott S »
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline markjenn

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 238
  • CB750K1, CBX, RC30
    • Whizmo and Gizmo
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2010, 02:22:48 PM »
I assume raising the slides a little more would create more vacuum, like w1sa is saying. Then just lower the idle with the adjustment screw, right?

Yes.  I think what happens is that if you have the rods too low (or perhaps high viewed from a different perspective), then you get a problem where the carb linkage (and the rubber boots that cover it) are resting on the carbs at idle and setting idle rather than the idle stop screw.  Having the correct adjustment allows the idle screw to govern.

Again, this is for the 750K1 and later and the CB500/550 may be a totally different setup.  I'd see if your manual(s) cover this at all.



- Mark
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 02:26:55 PM by markjenn »

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2010, 02:30:03 PM »
"So this points back to a vacuum leak....So why can't I find anything? "

Comp test?
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2010, 02:35:26 PM »
 I did a compression test on the bike when I pulled it out of the barn. They were all within tolerance. I can't remember the numbers now, but I looked in the manual and they were within the "acceptable" window and within 10% of each other.

 And not trying to be argumentative or hard headed here...I swear...
 BUT, if there was a vacuum leak, wouldn't it move around some? When this thing sticks, it STICKS. Like someone put the throttle lock on. (The throttle lock isn't the culprit. I've completely removed it from the bike).
 A vacuum leak would wander a bit more, right? And if it's leaking and I kill the throttle to stop it, why isn't it leaking when I fire it right back up two seconds later?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2010, 03:34:03 PM »
I'll just mention this.
If you have a vacuum tube, such as what exists between intake valve and carb slide.  Just how does it create MORE vacuum by making the equalizing opening bigger?
Answer: It doesn't, it can't, physics don't work that way.  You want more vacuum, seal off the tube to everything but the vacuum source.  However, if the vacuum source is low, even a perfectly sealed tube can't inherit more vacuum than what exists at the source.


Here's a thought.  The slide travel adjusters for the 627B carb exist on each carburetor.    It is possible to skew all the individual adjusters so that they are incapable of fully closing.

If you back out the idle knob will that stop the engine post haste?  Could your individual adjusters limit travel to the same relative position as the current throttle stop position.  If so, it could become random which travel limit was dominant at any one time.
Later carbs don't not have adjusters on #2 carb partly to overcome this mis-adjustment of all slides.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline haill

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 319
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2010, 03:44:56 PM »
did you check you valves if their too tight they won't close completely. which will effect your vacume,
you did say "it sounded like a sewing machine"

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2010, 05:12:12 AM »
did you check you valves if their too tight they won't close completely. which will effect your vacume,
you did say "it sounded like a sewing machine"

 Re-Checking the valves is on my to-do list. They sound fine to me, though.
 For the record: Sounded like a sewing machine was meant to be a compliment. It runs very smooth and very quiet.
  I know loud valves and cam chains; I also own XS650's and they will certainly let you know if you've gone too long between adjustments!
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2010, 05:17:19 AM »

If you back out the idle knob will that stop the engine post haste?  Could your individual adjusters limit travel to the same relative position as the current throttle stop position.  If so, it could become random which travel limit was dominant at any one time.
Later carbs don't not have adjusters on #2 carb partly to overcome this mis-adjustment of all slides.


 Yes, backing the idle knob out stops the stuck idle, but only by making the RPM's drop so much that the bike simply won't stay running.
 The other way to stop it is to hit the kill switch. I CAN make it stop with the clutch but putting it in gear and rocking the bike back and forth by letting out the clutch and pulling it back in. After doing this a couple of times, the RPM's will drop. That's one reason I suspected the stuck advance.

 Help me understand this vacuum/idle setting thing. If I use the adjusters to change the slide position and gain vacuum, that will only lower the idle. I use the idle knob to gain back the idle, but then I lose the vacuum. Isn't it six one way/half a dozen the other?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2010, 10:33:09 AM »
Help me understand this vacuum/idle setting thing. If I use the adjusters to change the slide position and gain vacuum, that will only lower the idle. I use the idle knob to gain back the idle, but then I lose the vacuum. Isn't it six one way/half a dozen the other?
OK, I'll give it a shot.

Let's begin with all slides being equal and all runners having the same vacuum.

If you raise one slide, the vacuum on that runner moves closer to atmospheric (less vacuum)  The rpm rises (because one slide is open more than the others, it behaves as if the operator asked for more power and that cylinder provides more energy to turn the crankshaft) Further, because of this, the vacuum on the remaining three improves (more vacuum).  This is because the increase in idle speed allows the cylinders to increase the frequency of the their vacuum pulses (they also provide less power for the effort of spinning the crank, but not much is required to do so at idle.

If you move the idle knob to restore the same RPM as before, three cylinders return to their previous reading, and the mal-adjusted one still shows a lower vacuum reading than the other three as the more open slide position allows more air in to equalized the pressure with outside atmospheric.

Now let's do the opposite condition starting with all runners having the same vacuum.
If you lower one slide, the vacuum on that runner moves away from atmospheric (more vacuum) as the slide provides a better seal against incoming air for pressure equalization. The rpm falls (because one slide is closed more than the others, that cylinder provides less energy to turn the crankshaft) Further, because of this, the vacuum on the remaining three also falls (less vacuum).  This is because the decrease in idle speed makes the cylinders decrease the frequency of the their vacuum pulses (they also provide the dominant power for the effort of spinning the crank).

If you move the idle knob to restore the same RPM as before, three cylinders return to their previous vacuum reading, and the mal-adjusted one will show a higher vacuum reading than the other three as the more closed slide position allows less air in to equalized the pressure with outside atmospheric.

I've seen this condition first hand.  My 78 550 came to me with badly imbalanced carbs.  I can only guess that someone prior had tried to "tune-by ear".  This model has a non-adjustable #2 carb position.  The dials revealed this cylinder had the highest vacuum and the #2 header pipe was of a lower temp than the others.  If the others are a tweaked for idle speed improvement, each slide is opened farther than the others in turn until the idle seems "smooth".
The problem was that return to idle was hit or miss.  Mostly miss and the idle speed changed the longer the the throttle remained at idle.  So, it was a battle among cylinders for crankshaft speed of rotation.  You had to set the idle high, for the event that it really wanted to idle low.

Perhaps a note on vacuum sync.  There is a lot of instability while tightening down the lock nuts which you must anticipate during lock down.  It is one thing to adjust for equal vacuum. it is another to maintain that after lock down.  The goal is to have all the ports show equal vacuum AFTER the lock nuts are tight.  The tie plates also enter into the picture as they can place a torque on the linkage causing mis-alignment and side pressures on the actuators/ball links.

You never did answer the question about return springs pressure changes.

And, at this point, I guess I would query about whether the linkage for each carb was assembled with the parts in the correct orientation.  I would remove the return spring and the cables and feel the movement throughout slide travel to ensure no binding or change movement force is required at any point in the travel range.

You still haven't eliminated the mechanical timing advance mechanism, have you? 

Cheers,









Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.