Author Topic: Crank Bearings  (Read 12758 times)

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Offline stueveone

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Re: Crank Bearings
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2012, 12:22:26 AM »
PM from Hondaman... Wanted to make sure the info is out there for all!

"Well, one thing I don't think I made clear in my book about "new" was this: if the crank journal is freshly polished flat, that is considered "new". Under those conditions, Honda uses the clearance of 0.0008" to 0.0012" as spec. When working with used crank journals, they are seldom flat, so don't go below 0.0012" on used journals with new bearings, unless you'll be especially careful about the break-in. If you use the correct oils (20w50, or at least 20w40), clearance up to 0.0032" will work fine in the end. If the number is bigger than 0.0015", just don't run with 10w(anything) oils."

Sweet. Thanks Mark!

Offline Leandro

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Re: Crank Bearings
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2012, 08:27:30 PM »
I haven't been able to find much information or photos of where the connecting rod's bearing numbers are located, and I've been confused on the numbers I have found on the rods. Could any of ya'll help me figure it out? In the following pictures, I'm not sure if the number on the big end is  14 or I 4, and I'm pretty sure the numbers on the arm aren't useful right now.

Offline afkrejci90

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Re: Crank Bearings
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2012, 09:01:22 PM »
Can't you just order ones of the same color code that are already on the bearing or is there an issue with this? Sorry to jack the thread.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Crank Bearings
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2012, 10:44:17 PM »
subscribing to this thread... I have the same questions as afkrejci90 and leandro.

My numbers a simlar on my project... and I was also thinking about replacing the bearings because the looked a little worn.
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Offline MessnerMoto

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Re: Crank Bearings
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2016, 02:33:32 PM »
CBR954 hits the nail on the head: in general machining practice, having cases like these bolted together to a "torque" from a torque wrench produces not-real-even case compressions. After they are align-bored and released, the holes often grow during the second bolt-up, after the threads in the holes smooth out and the torque becomes different. This can easily generate 4 tenths of a thousandth difference.

I first discovered this on Honda cases circa 1974, when we align-bored at K0 sandcast with over 100k miles on it. The holes were a little bigger than the case numbers indicated (which you'd expect by then), but they were not in line, but almost half a thou. So, the cases were bored 0.010" and shimmed with pegged shims, and new Black bearings were installed after polishing the crank journals. The final Plastigaging came in around 0.0015" for the 5 bearings. The most remarkable thing happened, though: that engine was so smooth that we started calling it "the electric 750". It was by FAR the smoothest running 750 I have ever seen. If I had the $$, I'd do it to mine in a heartbeat!

I will resurrect this topic and this great post by Mark. But everybody is free to answer ;)

Today I tried to measure crankcase holes for crankshaft using micrometer.





I didn't get to actual measure... but I did measure the difference of 0.03mm in ovalness of some holes. Basically if I measure the hole in vertical(top-down) direction the hole is in specs.... But if I measure a hole in horizontal direction some holes are bigger 0.03mm then in there vertical measurement.

 I torqued all the bolts to spec. I've put some oil on top of bolts... I now that engine lost oil at some point in history but I didnt care because I've got a new crankshaft from cycleX..

Also after some time I noticed that top and bottom cases are not aligned perfectly. I can feel it under my nails(in holes where cases meet) that top and bottom are misaligned by several 1/100 of mm.

All the input is appreciated.

Thanks...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Crank Bearings
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2016, 07:50:39 PM »
Yep, Messner, this is exactly what happens, and triggered my friend Jim's effort to make the old "electric 750". His sandcast enjoyed a less-than easy life (Jim rode hard and long), and it was specifically this difference in the holes that made him align-bore it. But...this is also common to many, many of these SOHC4 engines, in all 5 sizes that I have worked with (750/500/550/350F/400F). The reason: the cases distort over time from heat, and specifically from the top half of the case being hotter than the bottom half, causing all the tiny warpages that make them slightly misalign these 40 years later, when disassembled. That's why I advocate ALWAYS using Plastigage, and not so much bore-gage measurements, to ensure the vertical clearance (i.e., in the axis of the rods) is adequate for good operation. This is where the oil has to do its job, and the bearing joints in these engines experience almost no load (and CERTAINLY no wear!), so letting them be slightly wider will not harm the engine in use.

But...all this said: if you DO decide to align-bore them now, since the cases will not warp any more in future years, that engine will last much, much longer than they already do. And, the smoothness will have to be ridden to be believed!

On my own engine (in 2013, at 138+K miles) I went a slightly different route as an experiment, and it has turned out well: I Plastigaged every bearing (rod and crank) and selected the next size tighter-than-indicated (by Honda's rules) bearing for every site (I might add: I did this with all the valve guides, too). I then took it easy for the break-in of 1000 miles, and the power increase is dramatic (to me), as is the smoothness. There is no clearance more than 0.0009" in my engine's bottom end, now BUT...if this is undertaken, it must be done with ALL the bearings, not just the crank or the rods, as they are all fed by the same pressure stream. If one is allowed to be more than 0.0004" larger than the others with new bearings, it will hog more oil than it should and the others will all quickly wear to match the loosest one. I wanted to avoid this, on purpose: now I suspect the engine will outlive me? As a side note: the largest valve guide clearance (intake) in mine is 0.0008", some are 0.0006", and the largest exhaust clearance is 0.0018" (most are 0.0016"). No, the valves do not get "stuck" or drag, in fact they run so quiet to redline that it sounds like a DOHC engine now. I recently set the valve clearances back to OEM numbers (I have long run 0.003"/0.004" on mine) to see how quiet I can now get it to run (mine has the early-style free-rolling rocker shafts, so these do click a bit). It should be a fun season of these experiments! :)
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Offline MessnerMoto

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Re: Crank Bearings
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2016, 12:20:34 AM »
Yep, Messner, this is exactly what happens, and triggered my friend Jim's effort to make the old "electric 750". His sandcast enjoyed a less-than easy life (Jim rode hard and long), and it was specifically this difference in the holes that made him align-bore it. But...this is also common to many, many of these SOHC4 engines, in all 5 sizes that I have worked with (750/500/550/350F/400F). The reason: the cases distort over time from heat, and specifically from the top half of the case being hotter than the bottom half, causing all the tiny warpages that make them slightly misalign these 40 years later, when disassembled. That's why I advocate ALWAYS using Plastigage, and not so much bore-gage measurements, to ensure the vertical clearance (i.e., in the axis of the rods) is adequate for good operation. This is where the oil has to do its job, and the bearing joints in these engines experience almost no load (and CERTAINLY no wear!), so letting them be slightly wider will not harm the engine in use.

But...all this said: if you DO decide to align-bore them now, since the cases will not warp any more in future years, that engine will last much, much longer than they already do. And, the smoothness will have to be ridden to be believed!

On my own engine (in 2013, at 138+K miles) I went a slightly different route as an experiment, and it has turned out well: I Plastigaged every bearing (rod and crank) and selected the next size tighter-than-indicated (by Honda's rules) bearing for every site (I might add: I did this with all the valve guides, too). I then took it easy for the break-in of 1000 miles, and the power increase is dramatic (to me), as is the smoothness. There is no clearance more than 0.0009" in my engine's bottom end, now BUT...if this is undertaken, it must be done with ALL the bearings, not just the crank or the rods, as they are all fed by the same pressure stream. If one is allowed to be more than 0.0004" larger than the others with new bearings, it will hog more oil than it should and the others will all quickly wear to match the loosest one. I wanted to avoid this, on purpose: now I suspect the engine will outlive me? As a side note: the largest valve guide clearance (intake) in mine is 0.0008", some are 0.0006", and the largest exhaust clearance is 0.0018" (most are 0.0016"). No, the valves do not get "stuck" or drag, in fact they run so quiet to redline that it sounds like a DOHC engine now. I recently set the valve clearances back to OEM numbers (I have long run 0.003"/0.004" on mine) to see how quiet I can now get it to run (mine has the early-style free-rolling rocker shafts, so these do click a bit). It should be a fun season of these experiments! :)

Thanks for the fast replay Mark! :)

If I understand correctly majority of bikes have this problem and lot of people on this forum are not aware of this?:)

Selecting bearings according to just vertical diameter of a hole(Plastigage ) will work in my engine condition? (0.03mm-0.004mm difference on some holes in vert. and horiz. measurements)

What are the pegged shims ? ("the cases were bored 0.010" and shimmed with pegged shims")

Thanks