Author Topic: Vintage sidecar rebuild - new video  (Read 152050 times)

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Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #175 on: July 06, 2012, 06:40:24 PM »
Got a couple of things sorted over the last few days.  The electronic tach is installed.  Fitted into the XS housing nicely, and only required some minor rewiring at the coil.  Also finished the shifter mod.  Shortened the engine end by half, and lowered the rod attach at the pedal end.  The rod now sits nice and level, and there's a lot less play. ;D

The new permanent magnet alternator came in, looked very nice.  A pic for RR, with the old rotor. ;)


Started to install.  Things did not go well. :(  One of the bosses on the alloy mounting ring was fouling on a casting, and prevented the bolt holes from lining up. >:(  Some work with my trusty small file cleared that up, but then the 2nd issue came up.  The keyway in the rotor does not seem to be deep enough to allow it to slip on.  With the temperature at 30+C I decided to call it a day.  Came home and L/M & emails for the supplier & distributor.  I'll take another look at it tomorrow.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #176 on: July 06, 2012, 06:49:45 PM »
Quote
A pic for RR, with the old rotor. ;)

I feel special.... ;D ;D ;)

Looks good...
750 K2 1000cc
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Offline Syscrush

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #177 on: July 09, 2012, 12:56:43 PM »
Looking forward to seeing you race on Sunday, TT, and hopefully having a chance to meet bwaller as well.

I might be able to drop in on Sat, late afternoon sometime, but definitely coming on Sun before the racing starts.
Life is precious: wear your f'n helmet!
There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #178 on: July 09, 2012, 06:22:44 PM »
See you at the track Syscrush, bwaller will be there.  I'm sure you can find him, just look for the shinest bike in the pits. ;D ;D ;D

Update on the alternator.  After exchanging phone calls & emails, seems the version I was sent was not up to scratch.  Both the distributor (Bill @ JRC Engineering), and the dealer (David @ Seven Sins Chopper) were top notch to deal with.  Even got calls on Sunday, and am getting a full refund. 8)  If I ever end up with an early Triumph, or Harley would definitely deal will either again.  A replacement has been sent from 650 Central which has the XS timing marks & deeper keyway.  Expect it Wednesday PM.

I've booked a dyno session @ Mackie HD for 8AM Friday morning to sort out the timing, and jet the Weber.  Seem to be the only ones with a dyno that will take a sidecar.  It will be a long day, as it's a 2 1/2 hour drive each way, and I leave at 5:30AM.  Just hope I get out of there before the cottage traffic starts up. ::)
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline scottly

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #179 on: July 09, 2012, 08:04:51 PM »
Looking forward to seeing the dyno results!! 8)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Syscrush

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #180 on: July 15, 2012, 07:01:58 AM »
At the track now, waiting for the sidecar practice to stay,  think I saw bwaller in the last session...
Life is precious: wear your f'n helmet!
There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline Syscrush

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #181 on: July 15, 2012, 08:53:01 AM »
I don't want to steal any thunder, but thought some folks watching this might like to know that TT made it through the heats and the final. :)
Life is precious: wear your f'n helmet!
There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #182 on: July 15, 2012, 04:06:43 PM »
Can't stay up any longer, well past bedtime in the UK. :( :( :( :( :(
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Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #183 on: July 15, 2012, 04:13:49 PM »
Hear you go Sam, this is the second attempt to post this :(.  I'll post re the dyno session later, and hope that scotty will chime in with some suggestions.

Meet up with Syscrush & his wife at the track, and we had a great time chatting & watching the some fantastic races.  I know he has some photos & video from my final that he's promised to post. ;D ;D

So how did in go??  The short version is we started the final in 8th, finished in 6th, and had the 4th fastest lap time.  Although it should be noted we were over a second off the fastest lap time. ;)  Should probably have P/U one more place, but the weather intervened.  We had just passed a 750 Triumph powered rig, and had the next one in our sights.  Figured I get him on the back straight, as I was definitely pulling him in.  However, it started to sprinkle at the hair pin before the long back straight.  They didn't have the 'fluid flag' out yet, and we slid off on the exit.  Lost just enough time that catching 5th with the now dodgy conditions proved impossible. :(

'edit' I should also add a word or two re my passenger, 'Hopper', the guy's a pro in my books.  He and a previous owner won a championship on this rig.  After our practice we sat down and did a de-brief.  He mentioned were he was putting his weight coming onto the straight(s) (both right handers) for traction.  I commented that he was putting to much on the rear wheel, and causing the rig to push to much.  The result being I had to delay getting onto the throttle hard.  For the final he changed his positioning to get more weight on the front end, and allow the rear to slide more.  What a difference!  He figures that we're at about 90% of what's possible overall, and in a couple of turns 100%.  Getting that kind of feedback certainly helps shorten the learning curve. 8)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 06:53:25 PM by Tintop »
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #184 on: July 15, 2012, 06:15:27 PM »
Re the dyno session.  I'm not going to post the sheets, as I'm not sure that the dyno's calibration was right.  The HP & torque numbers are way off the reality.  I say this because I had no trouble (on the straights) either staying with, or closing on what are some of the fastest rigs in my class.  The good engines are making around 60+hp.  I do know that the perennial class champion's engine was setup on the same dyno, and mine was making only 1.5hp less, according to the operator.  So the reality is the numbers I got are basically useless.  However, I did get the timing set.  It's now at 38 degrees total, but I think that maybe to much, 35 is probably the sweet spot.

I'm getting a back fire/pop at very low speed, with closed or very small throttle openings (eg 1st gear going through the pits).  As soon as you open the throttle, and give it some revs it disappears.  I think this is because of the large chokes are causing poor atomization (lean condition) due to low air speed through the carb.

Now Scotty, about the Weber. ;) ;D  It was running very rich.  It had 45F9 idles / 175 airs / 140 mains / F9 emulsion.  The idle mixtures were out about 1+ turns each.  We had probes into both headers - idle was a touch lean (? see above), mid range was 11.6, and then it went very fat in the top end (10).  When I got to the track I changed the emulsion tubes to F16's.  This helped the mid range and leaned out the top end somewhat.  It will pull from low rpm's in a high (read wrong ;) gear) cleanly.  Then worked on the idle mixture screws (now @ 7/8 ???).  The sync is not spot on anymore, but it now idles not bad at about 2K when warmed up completely.  This is probably about as good as that will get because of the 34mm chokes.  It's still running on the rich side, so I'll probably try 135 mains.  If that doesn't help then next step will be to go to 180 airs, and put the 140 mains back in.  Another dyno session will be in the cards before the next race.

Comments Scotty???
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline scottly

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #185 on: July 15, 2012, 06:32:30 PM »
Do the dyno sheets show the air/fuel data? If so, please post them.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #186 on: July 15, 2012, 07:15:10 PM »
Do the dyno sheets show the air/fuel data? If so, please post them.

I have a separate printout for A/F, and one for hp & torque.  I'll scan them and post scotty.  The hp & torque one is only relevent regarding the curve(s), as I said the actual numbers are not right (low).  Not sure if I'll get it posted tonight though, as I have to use the other computer, and email it back to this one. ::) 
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #187 on: July 15, 2012, 07:22:16 PM »
Wow, that was quick, guess the different providers have decided to cooperate. ;)

Air / Fuel

Hp & Torque
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline scottly

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #188 on: July 15, 2012, 07:33:31 PM »
Looks like you're extremely rich! Since it starts getting worse above 5600 RPM, I wouldn't blame the 34's. Try going straight to 125 mains, if you have them on hand. Larger air-bleeds might help, too.   
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline scottly

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #189 on: July 15, 2012, 08:07:51 PM »
Just noticed the slight blip in all 3 curves at 7250 RPM; must be a point of resonance between the intake and exhaust??
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #190 on: July 15, 2012, 08:11:52 PM »
Quote
Looks like you're extremely rich!

Congrats, i'm stone motherless broke.... :o  ;)

Good to hear it all went relatively well Brian... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline scottly

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #191 on: July 15, 2012, 08:14:53 PM »
Quote
Looks like you're extremely rich!

Congrats, i'm stone motherless broke.... :o  ;)

Good to hear it all went relatively well Brian... ;)
Dammit Mick, you made me snort beer out my nose!! >:( ;D ;D
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #192 on: July 15, 2012, 08:39:10 PM »



Quote
Looks like you're extremely rich!

Congrats, i'm stone motherless broke.... :o  ;)

Good to hear it all went relatively well Brian... ;)
Dammit Mick, you made me snort beer out my nose!! >:( ;D ;D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Fuel rich & cash broke Mick :(, a 5 gallon pail of 105 race fuel was $101 Cdn. ::)

No kidding about being rich though scotty.  At least I didn't have to worry about burning a piston. ;) :)  Although it will now get an oil change, as it's probably pretty contaminated.  To bad, because it was the expensive Royal Purple Syn, and it looks very nice and clean.

I know I have 120, 130 & 135 mains, and 175 & 180 airs.   I also have F11 emulsions.  What your suggesting (125's) would be 3 steps down, so going to 175 airs would be very close to the same thing.  Changing the emulsions to the F16's (from F9's on the dyno) leaned things out, and put more fuel in the well (smaller dia. tube).  Possibly 175 airs, and 130 mains, with the F16's might push everything closer to 12.5 - 1 A/F ratio.  Comment??

I really want to do this on a dyno though, as I have nowhere close to do plug chops.  That said, now that I know where I'm at, I want to make sure this time that I go in with a definite game plan.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline scottly

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #193 on: July 15, 2012, 09:14:16 PM »
Emulsion tubes and air-bleeds are fine-tuning. You need to get your A/F graph into the readable range first. With your choice of jets, I would try the 120s, and go from there. Remember, you have 375 ccs sucking through each of those 34s. ;)
For example: BMW 2000 Alpina used 34mm chokes, with 1.25 mains.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 09:20:16 PM by scottly »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #194 on: July 16, 2012, 12:37:13 AM »
Quote
Looks like you're extremely rich!

Congrats, i'm stone motherless broke.... :o  ;)

Good to hear it all went relatively well Brian... ;)
Dammit Mick, you made me snort beer out my nose!! >:( ;D ;D

Glad to have been of service guys.... ;D :P
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline johno

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #195 on: July 16, 2012, 06:25:26 AM »
After a trip to the dyno I bet you wish you had  a Honda 750  ;D ;D ;D

I agree Scottly,
leave some room to move on the air jet  ( what your running)
Just change main jet smaller and smaller on dyno to get around 13 :1
Then Adjust the emulsion tube to lean out the low to mid AF ration to around 13:1
then adjust idle until its comfortable, only changing idle jet if there is a dip in the fuel curve like youve got,
once the idle and midrange is smooth then go back to the main and fine tune your power output with air correctors.

The other trap is when you nail it on the dyno the accel pumps really go serious rich of idle / mid range etc so wind on the throttle slowly on the rollers or the A?F gauge gets rich and takes time to settle down, try to tune it without the accel pups having too much influence on the rollers and AF gauge.
Have fun boys,  ciao Johno
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Offline johno

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #196 on: July 16, 2012, 06:32:40 AM »
 :o :o :o Why to 13:1 ? and not 12.5 : 1 ?
go there,  find the jet sizes  and pull it back where you want, doco the jets. Then youll know where you been where you can go and what size makes what difference. its fun cia
 ;D
GRASSHOPPER SOHC HONDAS ARE THE MEANING OF LIFE.

Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #197 on: July 16, 2012, 06:46:41 AM »
thanks for the comments johno.  I'm sure part of the problem I had with the dyno readings was the accel pump.  Also the dyno is mainly used for HD's, and the sidecar jumps in revs from idle to about 4K too fast for it to get good readings. I'm sure your correct that the accel pump is throwing things off.

Trying to stay around 12.5 (little rich), as the sidecars run at WOT significantly (70% vs 35% @ the TT) more than solos.  Holing a piston would end the season.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Syscrush

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #198 on: July 16, 2012, 06:27:46 PM »
Media to come.

Tintop and Hopper did great.  During the final (only time I saw them run) I could see them running/riding better with every lap.  It was great seeing Tintop again, hate that I was at Shannonville with bwaller AGAIN and managed to miss him AGAIN!
Life is precious: wear your f'n helmet!
There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline scottly

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Re: Vintage sidecar rebuild
« Reply #199 on: July 16, 2012, 06:57:44 PM »

Trying to stay around 12.5 (little rich), as the sidecars run at WOT significantly (70% vs 35% @ the TT) more than solos.  Holing a piston would end the season.
Go ahead and try the 130s first, with no other changes. Curious, what does the dyno test cost?
Syscrush, I'm eagerly awaiting the media. ;D
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....