Author Topic: So, help me understand this tire thing...  (Read 10028 times)

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Online Really?

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So, help me understand this tire thing...
« on: March 07, 2012, 08:53:44 PM »
<Not sure where this fits in what forum, move as needed>


... because I think I am missing something.


I read in the forums that you are better off sticking with the stock tire widths.  I think I am reading, if you go with wider tires, keep them proportionate front and back.  I think I am reading that if you stay at a stock size in the front and you go wider in the back, you can have issues with cornering.

I see in this video (the slow sections, 2:18 good example) the much larger tires in the back compared to the noticeably thinner ones in the front.  The front tire appears to fall more into the corner and the bigger one in the rear seems to bring the back end around.  In a way I guess, like apexing a corner.

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So, why is is so strongly suggested to stay with close to stock size tires on the SOHC4's and the newer sport bikes have such a noticeable size difference between the two?  I understand that their are trail/rake differences, frame geometry differences, total wheel height differences and the intentions of designing a bike that way.  I am missing something when it comes to the tire widths.  What is making it so wrong on the SOHC4's to go with a much wider tire in the rear and the newer sportbikes are so much wider?

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 09:02:06 PM by Really? »
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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Offline lucky

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 09:32:27 PM »
The modern sport bikes are using smaller wheels. What matters is the outside diameter of the tire.

Try to get the OD of the tire on the front and the rear about the same.

Offline Don R

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 09:46:09 PM »
Part of it is the narrow wheels, they pinch a wide tire together at the bead and change the intended shape.  I'm apparently not a very advenurous rider. I've ridden lots of tire configurations when these were newer and didn't see a lot of difference.
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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 09:53:55 PM »
Quote
What is making it so wrong on the SOHC4's to go with a much wider tire in the rear and the newer sportbikes are so much wider?

Its not wrong, its like you said, you need to know and keep track of the rake and trail numbers, Too little trail makes for a very nervous front end and too much trail slows down sterring response. I am going to use much wider tires and 18's front and back on my bike {K} and 17's with wide tires on my F model, lots of racers use the 18 inch size rims on their CB's. I am having different offset triple clamps made to keep the trail close to where it should be {around 4 inches or 100mm, i have 3 different offset size clamps, 35mm, 50mm and 60mm, to choose from and will take trail measurements of all 3 when ready}. Typical late model bikes have a 120 front and a 180+ rear, some run bigger rear tires but the optimum size front seems to be a 120. The only problem i have found is trying to find good 18 inch tires, recently a few tire manufacturers have made 110 and 120x18 fronts and 160x18 rears, i will be using similar sizes.
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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2012, 09:56:47 PM »
With the geometry of these bikes, the roll-over radius on the front and rear tires need to match each other when the bike is cornered. If the width difference is kept to a minimum between the front and rear, the bike will track on the like you choose, not on its own line.

The front tire is normally slightly smaller width because it carries less weight than the rear. The rear also has (or should have) higher air pressure. When the bike heels over, the tires roll in sync onto their sides: they should deflect the same amount as they do. So, on the 750 as an example, the stock 3.25 x 19 front profile with (old numbers) 28 PSI inside deflects approximately the same as the 4.00x18 rear with 30 PSI inside, and a 150 lb rider aboard. When heeled over, the centerline of the two tire patches then describe the same arc. This is eaily proven out by using a big flat parking lot and a few 5 gallon buckets of water, and by taking a few gentle, steady turns through the water and then going back and examining the resulting wet tire trails on the dry pavement after a pass. If you're dead serious about handling on your particular bike, you will then discover that changing tire pressure 2-4 PSI in either front or rear (usually more PSI) will accurately match up the track, and you will hit a 'sweet spot' that makes the bike feel like it lost 100 lbs somewhere the next time you through it into a freeway on ramp.  ;)

All this said, today's tires are largely metric. In the case of the same 750 frame, this translates to a 110-90/19 front with a 110-90/18 rear, with 4 PSI difference (higher in back) with my Avon Road Riders as an example.

The OEM tires were (after 1970) a ribbed front Japanese Dunlop or Bridestone in 3.25x19 with a specially-designed K87 Bridgestone rear, which was designed expressly for the 750. This rear tire had a thicker center tread than on the sides, so it rolled over into a shallower angle to meet the almost-undersize 3.25 front. The handling cure for this situation was to run +3 PSI more in the front than Honda recommended, or else go up to a more expensive 3.50 front tire size. Honda was under the gun too much for costs, so the front stayed at the smaller, less expensive 3.25 tire. We all benefited from switching to 3.50 in the second tire, though.

When the 1976 bikes came out with the 17" rear tire, Honda threw all handling to the wind (it seemed) in favor of trying to boost sales and advertise the extra power of the new engines by showing off the larger rear tire and seriously oversized 630 chain. Both of these features negatively impacted the handling on those later bikes, and many magazines immediately noted it. They can be "fixed up" by going to larger rear rims and more matching tire profiles, though, so not all was lost then, or now.  :)
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Offline Danno

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 09:58:16 PM »
lucky has it right the other thing about changing tire size wider on a narrow rim is that it requires more air in the tire to stiffen the sidewall on a narrow rim with a wider tire unless cornering is not really your thing and ride is all that matters

if it is the ride you want than a wide tire with 32 pounds of air will be softer but will feel like mush in the corners at high speed on the sohc4 however you can always add more air when you want to ride with other speed heads

the last issue with putting a modern round face tire on a narrow rim that requires more air pressure to stiffen it is you will not really get good use out of the radius  of the tire and it will wear a flatspot in the middle of the tread without hardly touching the sides of the tires unless you do a lot of severe cornering

my sohc with very sticky modern D404 tires will hang right with my friends 600 crotch rocket in the twisties of course he blows me away on the straights but cant get away from me in the corners
the tires need to be aired to their max with this type of riding but for just cruising lower pressures make a much nicer ride and better tread wear
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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 10:01:38 PM »
I think the OP is referring to rim widths as well, thats how i read it, anything is possible if its done right......
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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 06:58:51 AM »
Thanks for all the replies folks! 

Yea, proper tire sizing to rim width I am good with.  It was just where it is highly suggested to stay with a 100/110 90-19 in the front and a 110/120 90-18 for the rear (closer in size together and smaller as well) on the SOHC4's and the newer sportbikes running like 120 fronts and 180 rears.  Basically 0-10 size width difference for the SOHC4's and as much as 60 size width difference on the newer sportbikes.

That is the part that was throwing me.  I tried to use that spot in the video as an example.  I guess it just may be the rake/trail, frame geometry and the shorter front rim/wheel that allows the newer sportbikes to run that much of a wheel width difference and give it that ability to carve that corner better.  Since the SOHC4 is not designed that way, it is better to stay at or close to the stock setup for better and safer performance during cornering.

Did I finally make sense of it? 
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 07:19:56 AM »
So the 110-90/19 front translates to a larger 3.50?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 08:40:18 AM »
So the 110-90/19 front translates to a larger 3.50?

Very close: the direct cross would be a 107/90-19.
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Offline 754

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 08:50:22 AM »
 Depends how you ride..build to suit.. if you want huge off the line traction, and have good brakes run wide tires, if cornering is not a concern.
 generally to wide for a rim is not good, but examine the intended use.. some on here worship "strock is Best" so rabidly that they cannot imagine other scenarios...
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Offline srbakker

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 08:55:50 AM »
Those Roadriders are interesting tires - modern tread design on a bias ply tire.  Are they tube/tubeless, or just tubeless?
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Offline MCRider

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 08:58:59 AM »
Those Roadriders are interesting tires - modern tread design on a bias ply tire.  Are they tube/tubeless, or just tubeless?
You can always put a tube in a tubeless tire. You just don't want to run a tube tire tubeless.
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Offline srbakker

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2012, 09:31:54 AM »
Those Roadriders are interesting tires - modern tread design on a bias ply tire.  Are they tube/tubeless, or just tubeless?
You can always put a tube in a tubeless tire. You just don't want to run a tube tire tubeless.

Ah ha.  Once again, I bow to the wisdom of the Really Old Timers.

Does it show that this is my first vintage bike?  :P
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Offline FrankenFrankenstuff

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 09:48:27 AM »
You guys are all so frigging smart. Thanks for the lesson. (tire nerds)

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 09:54:10 AM »
HondaMan
They can be "fixed up" by going to larger rear rims and more matching tire profiles, though, so not all was lost then, or now

Ken
By larger do you mean 18in What about with? I would like to know what you think I should go to. Time for tires and new rear wheel if I need to Harder to find a 17 tire with a front to match 1978 750 K

                                            Thanks in advance

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 09:57:07 AM »
My thread on this subject, and subsequent research, has taught me some things. But basically, you want rim width to match the tire, and both tires to be close to the same diameter.
One thing that surprised me when I attended CLASS on my S1000RR last summer, was that while my rear 190/55/17 was scrubbed all the way out to the very edge, my 120/70/17 front still had almost an inch of chicken strip. I'm guessing it is due to the width difference, but by my way of thinking, kept more meat on the track. I am paranoid about the front. You only need to lose the front once to make you a little gun shy! When the front goes bye-bye, your face goes "Hello Pavement!" And as for air, the BMW runs 30 front, 33 rear,for track(allows for heat expansion of air), and 33 front,36 rear on the street.

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EDIT: in the sticky at the top of this section, you will find a PDF file listing tire size and recommended width. I think someone said it was a little off, but it is still informative. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=17788.0

« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 10:05:02 AM by Gonzowerke »
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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2012, 10:48:19 AM »
Always remember to take into account the weight on the rear tire. It carries a much heavier load and acceleration torque than the front, so it becomes flatter on the pavement under these conditions. So, the more weight or power you put down in a given chassis, the rounder the rear profile needs to be to keep pace with the front. This is always the bike designer's struggle: to decide how the bike will be used, then make the tire patches consistent. Naturally, no one rides the bike the same as someone else, and the "personal customization" begins.

It's interesting to note that bikes are one of the most customizable vehicles on the planet, and the easiest to do so (except maybe bicycles?). I used to make a living in the 1970s doing just that: customizing them to match the rider's style. It's high entertainment!  :)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
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Offline MCRider

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2012, 11:04:38 AM »
It's always constructive to discuss things, or it should be. When it comes to tires and chassis set up I'm always leery of any one overgeneralizing.

What ends up being a twitchy set up for some may be right on for others. Our relexes and perceptions all being different. The OEM engineers are going for what might appeal to the broadest part of that market. Sport bikes being different than standards different than cruisers, etc. Within each category will be those who don't like the OEM set up.

A friend of mine who was raised on cruisers swapped for my HawkGT and was freaked he couldn't see the front wheel. That would be dangerous to some, he kind a liked it and now rides an FJ1200.
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Offline Don R

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 11:19:22 AM »
We have done a brilliant job of avoiding a typical tire thread. Congratulations. For specific recommendations possibly a PM would be in order. So....76 750F? street and roads no peg dragging.
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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2012, 11:43:40 AM »
Yanno Don, I am still waiting to see a typical tire thread.  Unless you are referring to the ones that have only one post, the OPs.  :)

I have done plenty of searching on this forum and usually come out confused or find many of those one post threads that are really useless.

Thanks for the many responses on this thread.  I do want to ask a question, just afraid it might kill this thread or just be ignored.  :)
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2012, 12:54:30 PM »
One last thing and it happened to me a several others. When you put a wide tire on the stock rim, the tire will develip a flat tread with a shoulder in the middle kind of like a car tire. This develops probably halfway through it's tread life.  For a dead staright road this is no issue. When you lean over to turn, Your tire has to go over this lip that develops befroe the side tread it contact the road. You feel the transition and it does not feel very good.
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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2012, 01:28:39 PM »
.  I do want to ask a question, just afraid it might kill this thread or just be ignored.  :)


Go ahead! Or PM me, and I will try my best. I don't think you will be a thread killer.
Another thing to remember is, Front tires go on the front, rear tires go on the rear! I know, seems like a no brainer, but you'd be surprised! :'(
Reason being, the belts are laid in a manner to optimize each tires role. The front is laid so as to maximize braking, the rear to maximize acceleration. So, if you put a front on the rear, you will be applying force in the opposite direction it was designed for, and could run the risk of shredding the hoop.
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Online Really?

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 01:49:20 PM »
What am I gaining/losing if I went with a 100/90-19 front (stock size rim) and a 140/80-18 or 150/70-18 on a 3.5 inch rim in the rear.  I realize I may need to obtain a 77/78K swingarm to make this work as well.

Racing it is not my intentions but I like to play once in a while.
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: So, help me understand this tire thing...
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2012, 02:47:38 PM »
What am I gaining/losing if I went with a 100/90-19 front (stock size rim) and a 140/80-18 or 150/70-18 on a 3.5 inch rim in the rear.  I realize I may need to obtain a 77/78K swingarm to make this work as well.

Racing it is not my intentions but I like to play once in a while.

I wouldn't put a 150 on a 3.5 inch rim mate, tire is too big.... 140 is a better size.... Some tire manufacturers have a rim to tire size chart on their site, i would be looking at that .... ;)
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