Topic: Need some help, something fierce! Can't pass emissions (PIC)

[seventythreecb]

Hola,
So she is finally running well. Had a good friend sync the carbs and solve my electrical issues. Now she runs well and i have no complaints about the ride or power. BUT, I can't freaking pass emission testing here in Phoenix, AZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right when I got her back took here to the Emission place and failed with Hydrocarbon=2489 and CO=7.63. Look at the plugs and they were covered in soot. So I/m running rich.
Turned the air screws on each carb out to 3 turns to make her run lean. Made sure the chock was closed and went back. Now Hydrocarbon=2350 and CO=6.75.
She has new plugs and caps. Fancy expensive gas.


So what do I do?
I was told that the uni filters on there restrict some flow, so I could try removing for the test.

Any other tips or tricks to get her to pass would be greatly appreciated.

Sadly, I do not yet possess the skill to rebuild a carb. Hopefully it doesn;t come to that


THANKS!!

Patrick

[tomkimberly]

Wow, I've never hear of a state requiring emmisions testing of motorcycles.

If I were you, I'd take it to a honda dealer and let them tune it up or at least set the carbs. Are you required to us test only stations?

Tom

[bollingball]

Sadly, I do not yet possess the skill to rebuild a carb. Hopefully it doesn;t come to that

Looks like a good time to learn.
Can you do a 3000 mile tune up?

[Accolay]

Sadly, I do not yet possess the skill to rebuild a carb. Hopefully it doesn;t come to that

Here's the big secret: It doesn't require skill to rebuild carbs. It requires attention to detail, patience, good labeling of parts, and new gasket kits from Honda. I say skip the kits that have all new jets and just use the old jets (unless yours are really messed up, of course). I used Yamaha carb cleaner, thus:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor/apparel/apscitemdetail/3/124/all/4/322/detail.aspx

If you want to get fancy, get new screws or buy a #2 JIS screwdriver, but it does not take skill, IMHO, to clean carbs.

[Duke McDukiedook]

I assume they take the readings at idle? Go with velocity stacks for temporary or take the filters off for the test to lean it out more? Otherwise you would have to go with a smaller pilot jet for the test. Can you take the fuel mixture out more lean than 3 turns out?

Hotter temp spark plugs for the test? Emissions tests on these old bikes are a complete joke.

 

[geminimotors]

Here in California, when you take a car to the smog test, they give you a printout. It shows the acceptable parameters defined by the state, and the test results produced by your vehicle. If you or your mechanic has a mind to approach your 'fail' status, the test results will tell you which direction you need to work towards- richer, leaner, more clowns, less elephants, etc. If AZ absolutely requires you to have the smog test, make them provide you with the parameters they're trying to enforce, and enlist the help of someone who can decipher their mumbo jumbo into real tuning advice.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Do you have the correct size slow jets?! Are your floats set correctly?

[seventythreecb]

Thanks for all the input.
I'm going to try everything else before I rebuild the carb. I am planning of rebuilding the carb in the summer here when it's 117 outside.

This weekend I have some free time my plan is as follows:
I'm gonna take off the pod filter and move that air screw to 5 turns out and see if she will run. If so, I'm running over to the Emissions place to try again.

Buddy of mine deciphered the numbers i threw up in the original post and said i was way too rich. Spark plugs confirmed it.

Any other tricks or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and wish me luck,
Patrick

[seventythreecb]

Jerry RXman,
I think I have the correct jets, but honestly. The previous owner lied to me about so many things on this bike that there is no telling what is what.

If anyone is looking to buy a bike in the Phoenix/Tucson area contact me and I'll I'll tell who not to buy from.

Jerry got any tricks?

patrick

[dave500]

with those pods ill bet it has over size main jets?dont go to a honda dealer,they wont have a clue.

[Toxic]

As I see it you have only one option, take the carbs off and return the settings to stock. You don't have the stock airbox so they are easy to remove.

If anyone is not prepared to learn or at least try to learn how to tune these old bikes they had either have deep pockets to pay someone to do it or they have no business owning one in the first place.

Real nice looking bike too.

Take lots of pics and post what you find on here and there are dozens of capable people that would be glad to help out.

This forum is the best resource there is for owning one of these old Hondas

[DJ_AX]

...dont go to a honda dealer,they wont have a clue.

sad but true

[chickenman_26]

Turned the air screws on each carb out to 3 turns to make her run lean. Made sure the chock was closed and went back. Now Hydrocarbon=2350 and CO=6.75.
She has new plugs and caps. Fancy expensive gas.
So what do I do?
Sadly, I do not yet possess the skill to rebuild a carb. Hopefully it doesn;t come to that
Patrick

If the valves and ignition timing are set correctly, and if the engine is in good condition, then I'm afraid it's come to that. On this style carburetor, the symptoms you have are often caused by badly worn needle jet sets. I had a set in here that had needle jets from some other carb installed. Your fuel levels could also be too high, air jets plugged... the hits just keep on coming. The point is, until you strip those carbs down for thorough inspection, you have no idea what you're dealing with and could fiddle till the cows come home with no positive outcome. The fancy expensive gas is more likely to make things worse than better. I'm in your area. PM me if you want assistance.

Stu

[fmctm1sw]

Ask Heffay.  Somehow his bike passed...

[lucky]

Hola,
So she is finally running well. Had a good friend sync the carbs and solve my electrical issues. Now she runs well and i have no complaints about the ride or power. BUT, I can't freaking pass emission testing here in Phoenix, AZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right when I got her back took here to the Emission place and failed with Hydrocarbon=2489 and CO=7.63. Look at the plugs and they were covered in soot. So I/m running rich.
Turned the air screws on each carb out to 3 turns to make her run lean. Made sure the chock was closed and went back. Now Hydrocarbon=2350 and CO=6.75.
She has new plugs and caps. Fancy expensive gas.


So what do I do?
I was told that the uni filters on there restrict some flow, so I could try removing for the test.

Any other tips or tricks to get her to pass would be greatly appreciated.

Sadly, I do not yet possess the skill to rebuild a carb. Hopefully it doesn;t come to that


THANKS!!

Patrick

Syncing the carbs will not solve the problem.
That is the last thing you do.

You did not tell us what year the bike is.

You need to take the carbs off and dump the fuel out.

If you cannot work on the carbs you will need to get some help but for gods sake do not take it to a dealer!!! Your wallet will get raped and the bike may be worse.
Most of the "mechanics"now at dealers only know how to plug in a laptop.
You do NOT need to take them completely apart. It is not like a car carburator.
IF the float needles are old they should be replaced. You do not have to replace the seats if they the rubber tipped needles.
Then check the float level like the manual says.
If the needle in the slide has a clip on it with grooves put the clip on the
next to the bottom groove.
If the needle does not have an adjustable clip leave it alone for right now.
Check the size of the main jet. Tell us what it is.
Check the size of the idle jet and write it down and tell us what it is.

You would have needed to do this anyway, even if you did not do a smog check.

As far as the gas forget about that.
Even if it has 10% ethanol it would just burn cleaner. It is not the problem.

Tell us what year it is and if the carbs have the accelerator pump on carb #2.

Look at the smog check as a very inexpensive dyno run. Thats what it is.
That data is great to have.

I was a mechanic back when they made these bikes. I know what I am talking about. You cannot solve midrange running problems by just increasing the main jet size. The mid range is controlled by the slide needle going up and down through the main jet. The idle is controlled by the idle jet and mixture screw.
Most smog tests are done with the machine in second gear at cruising speed.

[lucky]

Wow, I've never hear of a state requiring emmisions testing of motorcycles.

If I were you, I'd take it to a honda dealer and let them tune it up or at least set the carbs. Are you required to us test only stations?

Tom

That is a very bad idea.
Dealers do not know anything about these old bikes.

[gerhed]

--How about getting antique tags
--Here in Virginia--no inspections of any kind on antique vehicles.

[singedebile]

I've heard running sea foam (the duct tape of motors) can help with emissions,

[phil71]

if you can skate thru to july, it might not matter.. in the meantime, lean out your idle mixture right to the edge of not running, and your HCs should go down a lot.

"In 2008, the Arizona Legislature passed House Bill 2280 authorizing the exemption of motorcycles from emissions testing requirements in the Phoenix area. The exemption requires the approval of the U.S. EPA by July 2012 (as authorized by House Bill 2033  in April 2010). Subsequent analysis showed that the testing and repair of Phoenix area motorcycles does not provide a significant air quality benefit and a request for approval of the exemption was submitted to the U.S. EPA on November 10, 2009. ADEQ developed an Addendum to provide additional information and analysis to support the U.S. EPA's review of the exemption request. A public hearing on the Addendum was held on December 15, 2010. The Final Addendum was submitted to EPA on January 12, 2011. U.S. EPA action on the request is pending however, at this time motorcycles must still be tested in the Phoenix area."

[tomkimberly]

with those pods ill bet it has over size main jets?dont go to a honda dealer,they wont have a clue.

Mine would and does. It all depends on how well of a relationship one has with their local dealers and if you choose to support them, or not.

[tomkimberly]

Wow, I've never hear of a state requiring emmisions testing of motorcycles.

If I were you, I'd take it to a honda dealer and let them tune it up or at least set the carbs. Are you required to us test only stations?

Tom

That is a very bad idea.
Dealers do not know anything about these old bikes.

The next time you are in Orange County, CA, check out Orange County Honda in the city of Orange. Not all shops are the same.

Tom

[petercb750]

with those pods ill bet it has over size main jets?dont go to a honda dealer,they wont have a clue.

So true Dave - I went into the biggest Honda dealer over here and wanted some servicing info on my latest purchase. I walked up to the OWNER of the business and said
"mate, wondering if you'd be able to give my 1100RC a bit of a going over for me and check the shims?"
"what sort of bike are we talking about?"
"a Honda mate, this is a Honda dealership yes?"   
"never heard of them".

I walked out.

[crazypj]

With the readings you have you don't want to ride it until it's fixed
"Hydrocarbon=2350 and CO=6.75"
That's enough to be washing the oil off the cylinders.
 Who jetted it for pods? They are well OTT readings and probably need needles DROPPED, smaller main jet and a float level adjustment
BTW, the short open pipes don't do anything but create noise and mess up carburation

[Don R]

Just so we are clear, The needle clip should be installed in the groove that allows the needle to be lower in the jet,  making it leaner. Be careful with seafoam during a test it will remove existing carbon from the engine possibly making the test worse. I've never tested this but my engine smells like it's burning coal when the seafoam is going through it. After it may burn cleaner though.  I have found stock jets drilled to a bigger size so beware of that possibility. You may be able to remove the jets with the carbs in place on the engine, depending on the year.

[HondaMan]

Hola,
So she is finally running well. Had a good friend sync the carbs and solve my electrical issues. Now she runs well and i have no complaints about the ride or power. BUT, I can't freaking pass emission testing here in Phoenix, AZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right when I got her back took here to the Emission place and failed with Hydrocarbon=2489 and CO=7.63. Look at the plugs and they were covered in soot. So I/m running rich.
Turned the air screws on each carb out to 3 turns to make her run lean. Made sure the chock was closed and went back. Now Hydrocarbon=2350 and CO=6.75.
She has new plugs and caps. Fancy expensive gas.


So what do I do?
I was told that the uni filters on there restrict some flow, so I could try removing for the test.

Any other tips or tricks to get her to pass would be greatly appreciated.

Sadly, I do not yet possess the skill to rebuild a carb. Hopefully it doesn;t come to that


THANKS!!

Patrick

Item#1:
The air screws are LEAN IN, RICH OUT on the 750. Stock setting is 1 turn with new carbs, but your seats are now worn, so set them at 3/4 of 1 turn to 7/8 of 1 turn, not more.

Item#2:
Run Regular gas, low octane stuff.

Item#3:
For the test, try using either D7EA plugs, or (better) ND X24ES-U.

Item#4:
Make sure your sparkplug caps are good. The resistance must be now more than 500 ohms different between the 2 caps on one coil, like the 1-4 caps or the 2-3 caps. If their resistance is more than 9000 ohms on the K3, get new ones. They can be had in 5000 ohm type (aka "5K") in bike shops, although the 10K variety (a little harder to find) will reduce emissions by stretching the spark out longer for a better burn below 7000 RPM.

Item #5:
If you don't have the stock airbox, get one, at least for the test. Install a paper filter or a K&N filter.

Item#6:
Install #100 mainjets for the test. This isn't good in the long term, but will reduce hydrocarbons sharply and will drop the CO about 50%. It will feel as though someone is lurking inside your carbs with a wrench, trying to shut off the fuel, but it will help pass the test.