Author Topic: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750? FIXED  (Read 6966 times)

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Offline Graydude

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Anyone ever heard of this on a 750? FIXED
« on: March 05, 2013, 11:34:23 PM »
My project bike , Rust Bucket, continues to throw one head scratcher after another at me.  Fortunately, this site has helped me work most things out.  But the current issue has me totally baffled.  I know their are way smarter people than me on this site that may be able to help.

Rust Bucket has had the engine taken out five, yes, five times since I thought I finished the restoration.  The bike sat outside in Seattle for 15 years when I started.  ( see the link at the bottom of the page for the story) She looks beautiful unless you run her.  The current issue is I am not getting cylinders 2 or 4 to fire.  I can remove the spark plug wires and she still idles.  The exhaust pipes read 245 degrees on 1 and 3 and 100-110 on 2 and 4 with an infrared gun.  I have spark when grounding the plugs.  Why cylinder 2 and 4 when 1 and 4 and 2 and 3 are on different coils?  I run the Pamco ignition.

The problem started with this last engine assembly.  The bike was running fine a few months ago when all of a sudden she stopped dead at a light.  Long story is I first thought cam chain was broken.  Took out for engine for the forth time and discovered the bolts holding the cam sprocket to the cam had worked out.  Guess who forgot to torque them?  Whew, I just needed to put the bolts on, re time everything and all would be good.  Put her back together and started her with the air box off.  I quickly discovered that number 2 was blowing air out the carburetor towards the air filter.  That can't be right.  It was suggested here that I had a bent intake valve.  OK, removed for the fifth time.  Sure enough number two intake was bent.  Must have happened when the cam sprocket went on strike.  Spent a month trying to find an intake value for the 78 F3 and finally found a NIB.  Took the head down and had the new valve machined with a new seat.  OK, that should do it.  Back together with all new gaskets again.  Started right up but chugged.  The heat gun told me 2 and 4 were not firing.  WTF?

I've checked the compression and all are in the 80 to 90 PSI range.  That's where they have been since the first re ring and bore.  I know that is low but the bike ran great.
The ignition timing is spot on.
Spark at all plugs.
I've checked for vacuum leak and their do not appear to be any.
I pulled the carbs and rechecked the float levels thinking two were hung up open and just dumping fuel into 2 and 4 thereby cooling the cylinders.  Nope.  Confirmed the exact float level
Checked and rechecked valve adjustment and they are spot on.
Could I have screwed up when putting the valve train back together?  I don't see how because each valve checks out.
Put a vaccum gauge on the syncronatization ports.  The vaccum gauge needle oscillated widely.  Crazy needle.

Does anyone have any ideas?  I'd be really grateful!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 07:34:18 PM by Graydude »

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 11:44:38 PM »
Things that are not related to 1 & 4 and 2 & 3 - Valve clearance set properly? Plug caps are not shot?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Graydude

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2013, 12:22:36 AM »
Valves checked twice and they are right on.  Plug caps are almost new as are the plug wires.

Thanks

Offline lucky

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 12:42:09 AM »
I have read your post and previous post from the link at the bottom of your first post.
You have done a lot of restoration on this bike and i am sure it looks great.
Several times and you keep making statements that make no sense.

The fact that you have removed the engine 5 times just means that some issues are overlooked each time.

You said you left the cam chain sprocket bolts untightened.
Then later you said, "Must have happened when the cam sprocket went on strike."

The cam sprocket did not go on strike.

In one sentence you say that the engine kept running when when you remove the spark plug wires to cylinders #2 and #4.
So all that means is that cylinders #1 and #3 are still firing.

Later you say,"I quickly discovered that number 2 was blowing air out the carburetor towards the air filter.  That can't be right.  It was suggested here that I had a bent intake valve.  OK, removed for the fifth time. "

When you say that "It was suggested here that I had a bent intake valve."

Was one of the intake valves bent? Did you remove all of the valves and lay them on a machined surface or glass plate and confirm that a valve was bent?
Was it just one valve that was bent? Which one was it?
Worn valve guides or damage when a valve got bent. If they got bent.
A bent valve will cause the engine to pop and bang when idleing.
IT only has to be bent .001 thousandths.

When you "rebuilt" the engine were the valves checked for wobble in the valve guides? If you were getting a vacuum needle that is wobbling all over the place that can be one of the reasons among others.

Quote:
"Why cylinder 2 and 4 when 1 and 4 and 2 and 3 are on different coils?  I run the Pamco ignition."


Because the CB750 engine was unique for its time. Two cylinders are running on one coil and two cylinders run on the other coil.
On the CB750 two cylinders fire every revolution but only one of those cylinders is on the compression stroke. this helps lower emissions by burning any unburnt gases in the cylinder that is not on the compression stroke.

Then the next sentence says,"Took the head down and had the new valve machined with a new seat.  OK, that should do it.  Back together with all new gaskets again.  Started right up but chugged.  The heat gun told me 2 and 4 were not firing.  WTF?"

Why would you machine a new valve? You do not machine motorcycle valves.
Do you mean they installed a new seat and then cut it?
 I do not even know where you would get a new seat for a CB750.
But lets say you did get one.
Were the 3 correct valve angles cut in the seat before installing the new valves?

Then you say,"The heat gun told me 2 and 4 were not firing.  WTF?"

You would need to use a timing light to determine if a cylinder is firing, Not a heat gun. 

But even if you did use that heat gun and come to the conclusion that one or more cylinders were not firing, it is a different problem than a cylinder head /valve problem.

After reading all of this I just think you need to get some expert help.
You have some skills and some tools but you keep coming to conclusions about things and you keep taking the engine out and putting it in each time a problem comes up instead of taking the engine out and solving all of the problems before putting the engine back in.

You just need to be certain that everything is done correctly.

I would put away that infared heat gun for a while and not use it to diagnose things until you have used more basic tools to repair the engine and get it running reliably.


I hope this can help you.

I am also wondering about that piston exchange and the clearance of the valves with the new design of pistons. Did you check that?


 



« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 01:43:52 AM by lucky »

Offline Hondajohn88

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 04:31:39 AM »
My project bike , Rust Bucket, continues to throw one head scratcher after another at me.  Fortunately, this site has helped me work most things out.  But the current issue has me totally baffled.  I know their are way smarter people than me on this site that may be able to help.

Rust Bucket has had the engine taken out five, yes, five times since I thought I finished the restoration.  The bike sat outside in Seattle for 15 years when I started.  ( see the link at the bottom of the page for the story) She looks beautiful unless you run her.  The current issue is I am not getting cylinders 2 or 4 to fire.  I can remove the spark plug wires and she still idles.  The exhaust pipes read 245 degrees on 1 and 3 and 100-110 on 2 and 4 with an infrared gun.  I have spark when grounding the plugs.  Why cylinder 2 and 4 when 1 and 4 and 2 and 3 are on different coils?  I run the Pamco ignition.

The problem started with this last engine assembly.  The bike was running fine a few months ago when all of a sudden she stopped dead at a light.  Long story is I first thought cam chain was broken.  Took out for engine for the forth time and discovered the bolts holding the cam sprocket to the cam had worked out.  Guess who forgot to torque them?  Whew, I just needed to put the bolts on, re time everything and all would be good.  Put her back together and started her with the air box off.  I quickly discovered that number 2 was blowing air out the carburetor towards the air filter.  That can't be right.  It was suggested here that I had a bent intake valve.  OK, removed for the fifth time.  Sure enough number two intake was bent.  Must have happened when the cam sprocket went on strike.  Spent a month trying to find an intake value for the 78 F3 and finally found a NIB.  Took the head down and had the new valve machined with a new seat.  OK, that should do it.  Back together with all new gaskets again.  Started right up but chugged.  The heat gun told me 2 and 4 were not firing.  WTF?

I've checked the compression and all are in the 80 to 90 PSI range.  That's where they have been since the first re ring and bore.  I know that is low but the bike ran great.
The ignition timing is spot on.
Spark at all plugs.
I've checked for vacuum leak and their do not appear to be any.
I pulled the carbs and rechecked the float levels thinking two were hung up open and just dumping fuel into 2 and 4 thereby cooling the cylinders.  Nope.  Confirmed the exact float level
Checked and rechecked valve adjustment and they are spot on.
Could I have screwed up when putting the valve train back together?  I don't see how because each valve checks out.
Put a vaccum gauge on the syncronatization ports.  The vaccum gauge needle oscillated widely.  Crazy needle.

Does anyone have any ideas?  I'd be really grateful!
Don't know if this would have that effect .............but after sitting years I had one pipe jammed with rust inside and one with a mouse nest ............?    stranger things have happened............but....
4 -K7'S
2- K8'S
2008 VTX1800

Offline lrutt

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 04:40:51 AM »
You sure you got the cam timed correctly??? that or plug wires, plugs, or carbs. but given it did run ok earlier you said, I'd suspect cam timing.
06 Harley Sporster 1200C, 06 Triumph Scrambler, 01 Ducati Chromo 900, 01 Honda XR650L, 94 Harley Heritage, 88 Honda Hawk GT, 84 Yamaha Virago 1000, 78 Honda 750K w/sidecar, 77 Moto Guzzi Lemans 850, 76 Honda CB750K, 73 Norton 850, 73 Honda Z50, 70 & 65 Honda Trail 90, 70 & 71 Triumph 650s, 65 Honda 305 Dream, 81 Honda 70 Passport, 70 Suzuki T250II, 71 Yamaha 360 RT1B, 77 BMW R75/7, 75 Honda CB550K, 70 Honda CT70

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 07:19:59 AM »
If it sat for a month while you fixed the valve I would suspect clogged pilots.

Does the engine require a lot of choke and use of the throttle to get it started/keep running?

It's relatively easy to check anyway.

IW

Offline Graydude

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2013, 09:37:07 AM »
Thanks guys for the input an Lucky for the detailed response.  I probably used the wrong names on some of the issues so I'd like to make my problem,ms as clear as possible:

You said you left the cam chain sprocket bolts untightened.
Then later you said, "Must have happened when the cam sprocket went on strike."

The cam sprocket did not go on strike.
I was using tongue and cheek here.  I meant when the cam stopped working because the sprocket bolts worked there way out.

In one sentence you say that the engine kept running when when you remove the spark plug wires to cylinders #2 and #4.
So all that means is that cylinders #1 and #3 are still firing.
Agreed.  That is my problem

Later you say,"I quickly discovered that number 2 was blowing air out the carburetor towards the air filter.  That can't be right.  It was suggested here that I had a bent intake valve.  OK, removed for the fifth time. "

When you say that "It was suggested here that I had a bent intake valve."

Was one of the intake valves bent? Did you remove all of the valves and lay them on a machined surface or glass plate and confirm that a valve was bent?
Was it just one valve that was bent? Which one was it?
Worn valve guides or damage when a valve got bent. If they got bent.
A bent valve will cause the engine to pop and bang when idleing.
IT only has to be bent .001 thousandths.
Only one valve was bent and that was the number 2 intake.  I did not remove all the valves as I could not detect a strike by the piston like the small nick on intake number 2.

When you "rebuilt" the engine were the valves checked for wobble in the valve guides? If you were getting a vacuum needle that is wobbling all over the place that can be one of the reasons among others.
I had the top end rebuilt by a local machine shop on the first go round.  I had all new valve guides put in at the time as well as the valves lapped and the seats resurfaced.  I do not have more than 300 miles on the valve guides.

Quote:
"Why cylinder 2 and 4 when 1 and 4 and 2 and 3 are on different coils?  I run the Pamco ignition."
I mention the Pamco unit hear so the reader will know I have breakerless ignition and can rule out any problems with points, condensers etc...

Because the CB750 engine was unique for its time. Two cylinders are running on one coil and two cylinders run on the other coil.
On the CB750 two cylinders fire every revolution but only one of those cylinders is on the compression stroke. this helps lower emissions by burning any unburnt gases in the cylinder that is not on the compression stroke.

Then the next sentence says,"Took the head down and had the new valve machined with a new seat.  OK, that should do it.  Back together with all new gaskets again.  Started right up but chugged.  The heat gun told me 2 and 4 were not firing.  WTF?"

Why would you machine a new valve? You do not machine motorcycle valves.
Do you mean they installed a new seat and then cut it?
Here I mean I had the new intake number 2 cut to match the seat of the bent valve.  I did not install a new seat
 I do not even know where you would get a new seat for a CB750.
But lets say you did get one.
Were the 3 correct valve angles cut in the seat before installing the new valves?
I do not know the process.  This time I did try to make sure all the valves were firmly in there seats by turning head upside down with the cam off.  I poured some lightweight oil into the top of the combustion chamber were the valve sits and covered the valve with oil.  Over night the oil level did not go down in any of the valves so I assume I have good valve/seat contact.

Then you say,"The heat gun told me 2 and 4 were not firing.  WTF?"

You would need to use a timing light to determine if a cylinder is firing, Not a heat gun. 
I use the heat gun as it is the only way I can tell which cylinder is firing and generating heat from combustion.  Remember, I have spark on all four plugs.  I do use a strobe timing light to check timing and the time is spot on when the induction pick up is on cylinder #1 and the advancer is right on the "T" mark for cylinders 1-4

But even if you did use that heat gun and come to the conclusion that one or more cylinders were not firing, it is a different problem than a cylinder head /valve problem.

After reading all of this I just think you need to get some expert help.
I agree.  It's impossible to find a shop to work on these vintage bikes.  I did find one in Escondido CA and explained my issues before I put the new intake 2 valve and reassembled.  I was quoted they would need a $2,000 retainer just to start.  That was not gonna happen.
You have some skills and some tools but you keep coming to conclusions about things and you keep taking the engine out and putting it in each time a problem comes up instead of taking the engine out and solving all of the problems before putting the engine back in.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2013, 09:40:39 AM »
A quick way to check if it's a fuel issue is to remove the air box and spray some ether in each of the dead cylinder's carbs. If the idle jumps up as you spray the the "fuel" into the carb then you know it's a fuel delivery issue. If it does not then you have eithr a spark or compression issue.

IW

Offline Graydude

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2013, 09:50:42 AM »
A quick way to check if it's a fuel issue is to remove the air box and spray some ether in each of the dead cylinder's carbs. If the idle jumps up as you spray the the "fuel" into the carb then you know it's a fuel delivery issue. If it does not then you have eithr a spark or compression issue.

IW

Thanks!  I can try that today.  If my RPM does not go up, I can assume a compression issue since I have spark on all four plugs.  I really hope it's the carbs!

Offline phil71

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2013, 10:26:08 AM »
Not to be doom & gloom, but if you did a re-ring and addressed valve issues, those compression numbers are pretty bad.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 10:29:17 AM »
Just because you see a spark doesn't mean it's a *strong* spark.

Anyway, I would assume a fuel or compression issue due to the fact that you are having trouble with 2 cylinders from different coils... So I think that basically narrows it down to a spark issue if it's with the spark plug itself or the cap/wire. Since if it were a coil or set of points then 1&4 or 2&3 would be affected together.

Also your numbers of 80-90psi compression are quite low... though there is much debate on if the long hose of an automotive type compression testing will skew the compression numbers (theoretically it would) and how to do a compression test properly... all plugs out, throttle held wide open, fresh battery, etc.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

IW

Offline XLerate

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 11:31:05 AM »
Three things make the engine run: Fuel, Compression and Spark.

You're getting some fuel, but can't scratch that off the list unless all carbs are known to be delivering fuel. Are plugs from dead cylinders wet with fuel?

You're getting Spark, probably scratch that: however there are conditions where a sparkplug will fire outside of the cylinder but lacks sufficient current to spark under compression pressures, fairly rare though. Sometimes it may be tested by swapping the firing and non-firing plugs between cylinders. All plugs should show an equally bright blue-white spark, not yellow.

That leaves Compression: provided by piston bores, pistons, rings, cylinder head, combustion chambers, cylinder head gasket, camshaft, cam/valve timing, cam timing chain, valves and adjustment shims, valve seats and valve guides.

Low compression can be an indicator of valve problems or ring problems. Improper cam timing can still allow engine to limp along running on a couple of cylinders but not all and may cause low compression numbers.

Blown head gasket, improperly torqued head or warped head can cause engine to run on some cylinders, not on others.

Main suspects here are cam/valve timing, valve adjustment, valve shims, fuel delivery and quality of spark, if not all of those at once contributing to problems.

Offline Dream750

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 11:54:46 AM »
It's impossible to find a shop to work on these vintage bikes.   I did find one in Escondido CA and explained my issues before I put the new intake 2 valve and reassembled.  I was quoted they would need a $2,000 retainer just to start.  That was not gonna happen
If you’re willing to travel a bit south down to National City, CA see Rob or Mike at National City Motorcycle. They know the vintage Honda’s inside & out. It’s an independent shop with fair pricing and they are easy to work with.

http://ncmoto.net/

They have several old bikes on display too! ;)

Offline phil71

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 12:12:16 PM »
Valve shims?

Offline thep1pe

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 02:33:06 PM »
T is for top dead center. F is for firing or degree of advance. Check the timing again.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 02:48:35 PM »
Give us a measurement of the resistance across each of those 'almost new' plug caps. Until you take the measurement you can NOT rule it out.

Also as mentioned swapping wires 1 with 4 and 2 with 3 is a good and EASY idea. See if the misfire follows the wires.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 02:50:17 PM by Jerry Rxman Griffin »
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 06:29:37 PM »
You have spark and compression so that leaves only  fuel unless you have mixed up 2 spark plug wires or both the spark plug and coil wires allowing partial ignition function.

rt

Try this first.  You might have accidentally swapped the wires on 2 & 4 (although I think it would be hard to stretch #2's wire to #4, but that would definitely cause the problem you're describing).

Remember, one coil's wires should be going to cylinders 1 & 4, and the other coil's wires should be going to 2 & 3.

Since you said the bike ran fine before the cam sprocket "incident", the issue most likely lies with something that broke when this happened, or something you accidentally mixed up when you fixed the damage.

If swapping (or double checking) the wires doesn't work, think over what's changed since it last ran properly.  The bike ran fine before... what's changed since?


- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline scottly

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2013, 06:50:05 PM »
Uh, what do the spark-plugs look like? Are they carbon fouled? Clean and wet? Clean and dry?
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Offline Graydude

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2013, 07:06:22 PM »
Thanks guys, great suggestions.  I'll try all of them.  I'll let everyone know.  The best suggestion I have so far and one not tried is spraying starting fluid down the carbs to see if I get an rpm increase. If no increase at least I can rule out fuel delivery.

Offline phil71

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2013, 07:13:19 PM »
in case the timing's off... watch the hair on your forearms :)

Offline XLerate

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2013, 07:18:55 PM »
Thanks guys, great suggestions.  I'll try all of them.  I'll let everyone know.  The best suggestion I have so far and one not tried is spraying starting fluid down the carbs to see if I get an rpm increase. If no increase at least I can rule out fuel delivery.

Sorry, and no offense to anybody, but that's the worst suggestion so far! Starting fluid is ether and spraying it down carb throats washes all the oil off of cylinder walls, possibly causing rings to score cylinder walls. This habit of using starting fluid can shorten an engine's life very drastically and very quickly!

Better to use WD40 or Carb Cleaner to check for the same results, or CAREFULLLY use an unlit propane torch to spray a bit of unlit gas in carb throats. These won't damage cylinder bores.

Offline scottly

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2013, 07:24:58 PM »
spraying starting fluid down the carbs to see if I get an rpm increase. If no increase at least I can rule out fuel delivery.
Wet, clean plugs also rule out fuel delivery, and point to ignition problems. Dry, clean plugs point to a fuel delivery problem. Black, sooty plugs point to an excess of fuel.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2013, 07:49:11 PM »
Wet, clean plugs also rule out fuel delivery, and point to ignition problems. Dry, clean plugs point to a fuel delivery problem. Black, sooty plugs point to an excess of fuel.

+1   check this first.  And double check those spark wires.

I'm not sure if spraying starter fluid into the carbs is the way to go.  The bike was running before the cam sprocket problem.  Unless you knocked the carbs pretty good when they were off the bike (or dismantled them from the carb rack) I just don't see how that could have changed from when the bike was running. 

Unless maybe somehow a back-fire through carbs 2 & 4 when the engine seized damaged them somehow?  I don't know... that seems unlikely - I'm not sure what, if anything, would be damaged by that.
- Chris
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75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline scottly

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Re: Anyone ever heard of this on a 750?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2013, 08:02:32 PM »
Plug caps are almost new as are the plug wires.

Thanks
You might have accidentally swapped the wires on 2 & 4 (although I think it would be hard to stretch #2's wire to #4, but that would definitely cause the problem you're describing).



If the wires were changed, they must be aftermarket coils, so maybe the wires would be long enough to reach?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....