Author Topic: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help  (Read 3256 times)

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Offline Blackhole

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3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« on: March 27, 2013, 06:14:56 PM »
My son and I have been working on a 78 CB750K he picked up as a project and I am in need of some help at this point.  We cleaned the carbs, adjusted the valves, changed the plugs and set the points but we can only get three of the cylinders to fire.  1 has spark but the pipe never gets hot.  I pulled the bowl and it has gas and the main was clear...so what else should I look at?  How much suction should there be when putting your hand over the open end of the carbs?  Oh yea we are waiting for his pods to come in the mail...so no air cleaner at this time.  Thanks for any help you can give. Just looking for a push in the right direction.

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 06:34:07 PM »
Compression check? If you put your hand over the carb intake you should get good suction from all four
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 07:01:29 PM by Vinhead1957 »

Offline kghost

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 06:37:15 PM »
Did you remove the idle jet?

It has the smallest holes in the whole carb.

If not.....that's going to probably have blocked passages
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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 06:39:45 PM »
Well I think you have a good bike. I have one in black. When you say one do you mean #1 cly or just one of the four and you do not know which one? #1 is the plug on the left when you are on the seat facing forward. Do you have the stock air box? If so you should get it running with that to get a good base line then go for the pods. My son and I are doing the same thing but no pods. If you need help there is a ton of it here. PM if you need to on the carbs. I have spares not for sale but if I were you I would look for a set.
 
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Offline Blackhole

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 07:04:03 PM »
I will run a compression test and check the other jet on it tomorrow and yes it is the #1 cylinder.  It was getting late and sometimes it is just best to walk away for awhile.  The air box was one of the items this project came without.  When we head out tomorrow I told him we will check everything from the begining just to make sure we have not missed something small.  Where is the idle jet located when I take the bowl off?  The bike has a 4 into 2 header and the mains are 120s.  Are those too big?  Thanks for the help.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 07:26:44 PM »
I will run a compression test and check the other jet on it tomorrow and yes it is the #1 cylinder.  It was getting late and sometimes it is just best to walk away for awhile.  The air box was one of the items this project came without.  When we head out tomorrow I told him we will check everything from the begining just to make sure we have not missed something small.  Where is the idle jet located when I take the bowl off?  The bike has a 4 into 2 header and the mains are 120s.  Are those too big?  Thanks for the help.
OK I have a 78K. It is not ignition because that would typically take out two cylinders. Your carb needs help. To help you prove this, start it up.

Take some spray carb cleaner down the throat of that carb, starting fluid is great if you have some. If she fires with the cleaner or ether going into the throat, your carb needs to be taken apart and properly cleaned. In doing this test, you are directly sending "fuel" into the cylinder bypassing the carb passages.

You will have to take these carbs off anyway. Your accel pump is gummed up I am sure, and emulsion tubes are clogged also.  It is something we all have to do.

PODs will only complicate your life.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline ekpent

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 07:29:11 PM »
Have you visually confirmed you are getting a good fat spark on that cylinder.Ground the plug outside the hole and turn over the engine to check. Any chance that one is fouled or maybe a bad plug.Swap a couple around to be sure. A trick a lot of us use is to unscrew the plug wire cap,nip about 1/4 inch off the wire and screw the cap back on to make sure there is a good connection.If the spark looks good move on to other causes.

Offline Blackhole

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2013, 07:31:26 PM »
The emulsion tubes are clean as we had them out when cleaning the carbs.  We did not take the pump unit on the #2 carb apart so we may need to do this.  If it was bad wouldn't all the cylinders suffer?

Offline Blackhole

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2013, 07:36:56 PM »
I did nip off the end of both 1 and 4 wires.  When I remove the plugs for the compression test I will mark them then switch #1s with a known good one.  When the bike is running and you go to roll on the throttle it kills the engine.  Could this be the pump on #2?  Will a bike act like this if only three cylinders are firing or do we have more problems ?

Offline flybox1

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 07:56:18 PM »
We did not take the pump unit on the #2 carb apart so we may need to do this.  If it was bad wouldn't all the cylinders suffer?
  :o
there it is!!!! yeah...you need to do this. 
this is a one way system, with 2 ball check valves.  one in the accel pump bowl, and one at the top rim of carb bowl #2 (dont loose this o ring around this check valve)  spray carb cleaner in the passages to clear them.
accel pump diaphragm.  ensure the mickey mouse ears of the diaphragm are clean and clear.  not ratty or crushed.
also, while the carbs are off,  remove the fuel lines between the carbs. these are the passages of the accel pump. 
2 other things to attend to. 
first, once you get them off, ensure they still have the brass restrictor tubes inside the fuel line. if they dont, replace.
second, spray carb cleaner into the brass nipples these fuel lines come off of.  carb cleaner should squirt out the accel pump squirters. if it does not, use thin gauge wire to ream out the passages.  they need to squirt well.

check this picture in this post http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=105018.msg1230053#msg1230053
it shows the brass restrictor tubes between carbs and the brass nipples to spray cleaner through.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline Blackhole

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 08:04:49 PM »
We replaced the lines but the old ones didn't have the brass restrictor tubes.  Where do you get these or can they be made?

Offline flybox1

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 08:19:11 PM »
you can make them out of brass tube from the hobby store for under $2.  i'll find the specs...
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline flybox1

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 08:25:58 PM »
accel pump restrictor tube specs

Three tubes .350 inches long.
Three tubes .450 inches long.

One long tube and one short tube between each of the three connections.

The outside diameter of the tubes is 3/16 inch
The inside diameter of the tube is is 1/8 inch.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 06:44:42 AM by flybox1 »
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline lucky

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2013, 11:40:10 AM »
I will run a compression test and check the other jet on it tomorrow and yes it is the #1 cylinder.  It was getting late and sometimes it is just best to walk away for awhile.  The air box was one of the items this project came without.  When we head out tomorrow I told him we will check everything from the begining just to make sure we have not missed something small.  Where is the idle jet located when I take the bowl off?  The bike has a 4 into 2 header and the mains are 120s.  Are those too big?  Thanks for the help.

The #120's are the right main jets.
You may need to lower the clip one notch on the slide needles with pods.
Otherwise it will want to hesitate when giving it a quick twist of the throttle.

Use a #10 steel guitar string,carb cleaner, to clear the idle jets and compressed air.
The idle jets can get clogged completely with goooey dried up gas.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2013, 12:04:33 PM »
I will run a compression test and check the other jet on it tomorrow and yes it is the #1 cylinder.  It was getting late and sometimes it is just best to walk away for awhile.  The air box was one of the items this project came without.  When we head out tomorrow I told him we will check everything from the begining just to make sure we have not missed something small.  Where is the idle jet located when I take the bowl off?  The bike has a 4 into 2 header and the mains are 120s.  Are those too big?  Thanks for the help.

The #120's are the right main jets.
You may need to lower the clip one notch on the slide needles with pods.
Otherwise it will want to hesitate when giving it a quick twist of the throttle.

Use a #10 steel guitar string,carb cleaner, to clear the idle jets and compressed air.
The idle jets can get clogged completely with goooey dried up gas.
78s do not have needle clips. You would have to shim.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline flybox1

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 12:17:31 PM »
the idle jet is right between the floats (sounds like you need a cop of a clymer or the shop manual to assist you  ;) ) and yes, you'll definitely need to shim the needles.
shim process and specs are here...
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=71245.0

'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline Blackhole

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 06:43:46 PM »
Well this one is all on me :(  My son had to work tonight so I just went out and took his cabs off to take a look at them).  I have been trying to let him do all the work to this motorcycle but this would be my fault as I stood there and told him what to do when we were cleaning his cabs.  (Father Son project)  We didn't remove the idle jets for fear of messing them up (pressed in parts have a way of breaking when I work on them).  We did spray them down and use the air compresser on them.  We also didn't take apart the accelerator pump...I have no excuse for this one as I truly don't know why we left this alone.  My compression tester doesn't have the correct adapter so I will need to get one from my friend this weekend to run that test.  I did remove the accelerator pump and it looks to be OK except for the fact it is missing the little rubber bellows part I see in the kits on eBay.  Does all that part do is keep stuff off of the top of the diaphragm.  Would we be OK to get it running without the little rubber part then replace it down the road?  We will get the washers and shim the cabs this weekend when we re-clean his cabs.  I also have a manual but it doesn't do you any good if you don't read it!!!!!
I believe we have the reducers in the fuel lines...it was the lines more to the center of the cabs that we replaced.
Three things I learned this week
1     I am not a master carb cleaner
2     I don't know as much as I thought I did
3     I need to look at the manual more
I will post back after we get this stuff fixed and the compression tested.  Thanks for all the help.  I feel much better about this after finding the plugged jets.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 06:54:19 PM by Blackhole »

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 07:01:54 PM »
Don't feel bad mate, those carbs are a pain in the arse compared to the earlier Keihins on the K1-K6. Don't worry about the rubber bellows when you put them back together, just replace it when you can. I'm sure that you've got a blocked idle jet, and you will need to remove it to clean it properly.

Twist it out with a pair of vice grips and hold it up to the light, and I'll bet it's blocked. Get one of Lucky's guitar strings and poke it thru, and make sure the side holes are clear too. Blow the idle circuit thru with compressed air, and then spray some carb cleaner or WD40 thru the circuit to confirm that it's clear.

The 77/78 carbs were designed to run lean to satisfy US EPA laws, so if you install pods you may need to go bigger than Lucky's suggestion of 125's, they'd actually be my starting point if I was installing pods on those carbs, I think I installed 130's or 135's on Cliff's (Maduncles) F2 to get it to idle and run sweetly. Cheers, Terry. ;D 
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Offline flybox1

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2013, 09:32:04 PM »
No worries chief.  ;D. I was in your shoes just last summer when I picked up my K8 and stumbled through learning PD carbs after keihins on my 350F.  The manual is great,  but this forum is a godsend for real world application. 
And lets not mention the fast idle cam you'll need to get sorted to make starts a breeze  :P
We are all here to help eachother learn and enjoy these old bikes.  Hang out here more and show your kid how smart you are.  We won't tell ;)

+1 to what Terry posted.  Get those idle jets out and cleaned.  Check over the stuff you cleaned last time.  It can't hurt.  You're going to need to shim the slide needles as well.  I'll post a good link to that in the am..
130's are a good starting point for your pods. 
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline lucky

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2013, 04:14:19 AM »
IF you can get a set of 1976 slide needles you can just use those and they have adjustable clips.


If you use a shim under each (stock) needle, use one .020 shim that sits on top of the pocket in the bottom of the inside of the slide.
That will make it .020+ the .012 thous pocket giving you a .032 thou total.

Two .020 thous shims will be too much.

Make sure this does not happen. Shim is just large enough to get stuck.


Offline BobbyR

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2013, 06:13:59 AM »
OK, I suggested you start the bike and spray some Gumout or other spray into that carb which will tell you if it is the carb. I think you passed that tip by and focused on compression for some reason.

The 78 pumper carbs do not have clips as we all know at this point. The 78 carbs also have actual mixture screws and not air screws, so you actually enrich the gas mixture not restrict the air. Bottom line, you probably don't have to swap around needles.

I do not wish to be unkind. You are going to confuse yourself trying to perform needle swaps from other carbs. At this point you do not have the expertise to perform these things.

If the carbs are off the bike put them on a table and look at them. You will see how they are built. Just look at them for a few minutes.

The main thing you should focus on is getting them to function normally, forget tweaking and modifications, just get them operating properly.

You need to pull the idle jets, get a pliers and just lightly grab the jet, a slight wiggle and a twist and they will pull out. If the brass gets a scratch no proble, you just don't want to make them oval.

A thin piece of copper wire from a lamp cord or speaker wire will loosen the crap and you can flush it out. They are all blocked from the MBTE they had in the gas at one point.

Fix your accel pump and get that working. Once you have the carbs at a proper base line function, and get the motor running well. You can then fiddle with tweaks and refinements. Unless you have have the basics sorted out, you can't refine anything.

I am running 120s with a stock air box and have no serious plug fouling, so you may have to go bigger later on, for now stick with what you have and make it work well. 

You have a lot of well intentioned people here who know what they are doing, but they will lead you in circles unknowingly. You do not know enough yet to do those things.


   

 
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2013, 03:57:28 PM »
Not wanting to argue with my mate Bobby, but much of what he's said I think I covered in my previous post.

The point about jet sizes is important though, as opposed to Bobby, I've had first hand experience with pods on those carbs and I'll tell you right now, if you stick with the 120's you'll be pulling the carbs again to up the main jets.

Cliff (Maduncle) brought his F2 over to my place with 115's to install for him with his brass velocity stacks, and I could only just get the thing to run........... badly. I ended up using either 125's or 130's to get it to start easily, idle, and pull away without any flat spots.

The PD carbs run much leaner than the earlier carbs, and with pods/stacks/anti-pods, you need much, much bigger jets. Cheers, Terry. ;D 
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline BobbyR

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2013, 04:11:11 PM »
Not wanting to argue with my mate Bobby, but much of what he's said I think I covered in my previous post.

The point about jet sizes is important though, as opposed to Bobby, I've had first hand experience with pods on those carbs and I'll tell you right now, if you stick with the 120's you'll be pulling the carbs again to up the main jets.

Cliff (Maduncle) brought his F2 over to my place with 115's to install for him with his brass velocity stacks, and I could only just get the thing to run........... badly. I ended up using either 125's or 130's to get it to start easily, idle, and pull away without any flat spots.

The PD carbs run much leaner than the earlier carbs, and with pods/stacks/anti-pods, you need much, much bigger jets. Cheers, Terry. ;D
Agreed, all that you said is true and well put. This fellow does not even have a working carb on one cylinder as I can reckon.

My point was get to know what you are doing first, get the carb working and then fine tune them for the application. I see a poor fellow going in circles right now.

I have these carbs and having had to tear into them 4 times and I realized there is no shortcut. The PO rejetted mine to 120s and as I said I am not fouling plugs with the stock airbox and exhaust, that tells me there is a lot of room for enrichment when using Pods and / or more open exhaust.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline lucky

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2013, 04:48:11 PM »
Not wanting to argue with my mate Bobby, but much of what he's said I think I covered in my previous post.

The point about jet sizes is important though, as opposed to Bobby, I've had first hand experience with pods on those carbs and I'll tell you right now, if you stick with the 120's you'll be pulling the carbs again to up the main jets.

Cliff (Maduncle) brought his F2 over to my place with 115's to install for him with his brass velocity stacks, and I could only just get the thing to run........... badly. I ended up using either 125's or 130's to get it to start easily, idle, and pull away without any flat spots.

The PD carbs run much leaner than the earlier carbs, and with pods/stacks/anti-pods, you need much, much bigger jets. Cheers, Terry. ;D

The main jet has nothing to do with the idle.
The idle is controlled by the idle jet and the mixture screw up to 1/4 throttle.

The slide needle controls 1/4 -3/4 throttle

The main jet controls WOT and there is some crossover
into the last part of the 3/4 range

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: 3 out of 4 is BAD...Need a little help
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2013, 05:04:46 PM »
Thanks Lucky, for "Stating the bleeding Obvious", as usual................  ::) 
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)