Author Topic: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build  (Read 21472 times)

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Offline Powderman

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1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« on: March 28, 2013, 09:37:32 PM »
As soon as I finish up my Harley XR1350 and make my Land Speed record run at Ohio either next month or June when ever I get finished I will start on my next build. A friend owed me some money on some parts I coated for him so I talked him into giving me this 77Cb400f he bought when we were at Barber Vintage Festival in 2011. I had hopes of restoring it or building a cafe racer out of it. After not seeing it for 2 years before he delivered it to me I didn't remember it being in such rough shape. I looked at it and figured it would cost me $10k to restore it to original and then I would have a $5k bike, so cafe racer it is. I want to upgrade to some modern stuff so I decided I would go with a full CBR600f1 swap for the front end, wheels and brakes. I found a NIB Airtech full fairing with windscreen for an RD400 for $125 on Craigs list in Boise. I ended up getting it for $100 and it turns out the guy gave me both tinted and clear windscreen, a $456 dollar deal for $150 after shipping. The fairing fits perfectly. I was worried about the 4 being too wide but it's only 17" wide at the front. I scored a set of wheels and rotors for $75 shipped. I'll make my own seat. I'm well on my way to dive into this next project.







I put the seat from XR on it just to get an idea of what it would look like, I'll build something similar without the duck tail at the back:


Here's my current project. Should have the motor back next week. 1327cc,100hp,360lbs.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 09:41:52 PM by Powderman »

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2013, 09:46:12 PM »
I'll post progress as we go on this one. First item of business is to get it running. I had to get coils, throttle cable and go through the carbs first. It has good compression and turns over easily. I hooked the battery charger to it as it has no battery and the whole dash lit up but no starter button.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2013, 03:44:32 PM »
I think these CBR600 wheels are going to work just fine:

Offline ivanhoew

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2013, 12:45:55 AM »
watching !
just do it .

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2013, 12:15:55 PM »
Well the CBR wheels are mounting up without the headaches expected. I took the stock wheel off and the brake pads fell right off the shoes. The CBR600 wheel went right back on using the stock CB400 axle and adjusters. It all looks like it will clear everything. I just need to find the widest skinny tire I can put on this 3.5" wheel. Spacers will be a piece of cake and I think I won't have any issues lining up the sprocket on the cush drive. Then just dealing with the caliper bracket which should be any trouble either. I'm definitely glad I went this route so far.










Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2013, 01:31:12 PM »
Are you planning on running without a tire? It sure doesn't look like one that fits the rim will also fit between the swingarm.
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Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline MoMo

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2013, 01:42:48 PM »
PM , your work is cut out,  that 400 is barely a couple notches over scrap.  Keep posting photos of the XR-looks awesome so far....Larry

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2013, 05:26:21 PM »
Are you planning on running without a tire? It sure doesn't look like one that fits the rim will also fit between the swingarm.

Maybe I should have mention something about the tire, Oh wait. I did.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2013, 05:28:56 PM »
PM , your work is cut out,  that 400 is barely a couple notches over scrap.  Keep posting photos of the XR-looks awesome so far....Larry
You, my friend, have no imagination. I have about $200 in this thing so far and that includes a full fairing with 2 windscreens that retail at $456 and the CBR wheels and rotors.
 The XR I have less than $10K in and it was appraised at upwards of $40k and that was before powder coating and polishing.
 I wasn't sure this is the place to show off the XR.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 05:33:45 PM by Powderman »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2013, 05:47:35 PM »
Quote
I just need to find the widest skinny tire I can put on this 3.5" wheel

140 is the widest for that size rim...
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Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2013, 09:00:39 PM »
Actually a 150-80 or 150-90 will also fit. That rim calls for a 5" tire. I can choose form 110-70, 120-70,130-60 and have enough room. There is 5"width of clearance in front of the front lip 4"-5" from the front of the swing arm. I don't think this wheel is going to be any problem at all.

Offline ivanhoew

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2013, 02:21:35 AM »
watching avidly ,this is going to be a stonker !
just do it .

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2013, 02:24:53 AM »
Actually a 150-80 or 150-90 will also fit. That rim calls for a 5" tire. I can choose form 110-70, 120-70,130-60 and have enough room. There is 5"width of clearance in front of the front lip 4"-5" from the front of the swing arm. I don't think this wheel is going to be any problem at all.

150-80 or 150-90 on a 3.5 inch rim, Who told you that..?  The CBR you got those wheels off had a 130/80 V17 as stock on the rear, anything bigger than a 140 is wrong and not recommended by anyone..
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Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2013, 06:28:49 AM »

Offline braveg

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2013, 01:48:27 PM »
Hey PM, good to see your progress and sorry to change the subject a little, but seeing as powdercoating is your thing, I remember a while back on CR.net there was a discussion about powdercoating exhaust headers but i cant find it cos the search doesnt work very well...my usual powdercoater here in SA has just started offering high heat powdercoating and was wondering if this would work on my cb400? I have just picked up a set of headers that aren't the original and as such I don't mind powdercoating/painting them. Any suggestions? Is high heat powdercoat up to the task or is ceramic coating the only way to go?

Thanks man
G

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2013, 03:14:30 PM »
This list shows it as an option:
http://www.mtsac.edu/~cliff/storage/gs/Motorcycle_Rim_Width_Tire_Size_Chart.pdf

Doesn't make it right, if you look hard enough you will find anything you want on the internet. I'm not making this up and its not my opinion, I have a lot of experience with setting bikes up over nearly 35 years, a 150 is too big for a 3.5 inch rim....Simple as that...
In saying that, you fit what you want, but i will give anyone on the forum the same advice as i am giving you. You are fitting bigger rims allowing better tire choices so i assume that you want a good handling bike..?  Over tiring the bike will make it handle worse, not better, if you are just doing it for looks it still isn't right but its also your choice......

If you want reliable tire fitting charts , go to the tire manufacturers web sites..
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2013, 03:28:42 PM »
This list shows it as an option:
http://www.mtsac.edu/~cliff/storage/gs/Motorcycle_Rim_Width_Tire_Size_Chart.pdf

Doesn't make it right, if you look hard enough you will find anything you want on the internet. I'm not making this up and its not my opinion, I have a lot of experience with setting bikes up over nearly 35 years, a 150 is too big for a 3.5 inch rim....Simple as that...
In saying that, you fit what you want, but i will give anyone on the forum the same advice as i am giving you. You are fitting bigger rims allowing better tire choices so i assume that you want a good handling bike..?  Over tiring the bike will make it handle worse, not better, if you are just doing it for looks it still isn't right but its also your choice......

If you want reliable tire fitting charts , go to the tire manufacturers web sites..
The chart I provided was made using the tire manufacturers input. I agree with what you say about stuff on the internet, so why should I believe what you say? I assume because I posted other options for that size wheel that you assume I want to go that big, you would be wrong and would know that had you read my post in detail. I am going to fit the smallest safe tire on that wheel. If you have seen my other bike you would know I am not a rookie at this game, been doing this longer than you.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2013, 03:33:43 PM »
Hey PM, good to see your progress and sorry to change the subject a little, but seeing as powdercoating is your thing, I remember a while back on CR.net there was a discussion about powdercoating exhaust headers but i cant find it cos the search doesnt work very well...my usual powdercoater here in SA has just started offering high heat powdercoating and was wondering if this would work on my cb400? I have just picked up a set of headers that aren't the original and as such I don't mind powdercoating/painting them. Any suggestions? Is high heat powdercoat up to the task or is ceramic coating the only way to go?

Thanks man
G
I have found the high temp powders (good to 1200*f) to be too finicky when it comes to prep. If you don't have it perfect it will fail and start to flake off. I no longer offer high temp in my business for this reason. You do a perfect job and the powder starts flaking and the coater gets blamed for doing a piss poor job. No standard powder will work on exhaust pipes as it is only good to spikes of 500*f and most pipes at the first bend out of the head exceed that by a bunch. I would stick with Ceramic, a bit more expensive but able to handle the higher temps (up to 2000*f). Unfortunately it doesn't have the durability of powder and I've seen people ride hard and stop at the car wash and power wash the ceramic right off because of the shock in temp difference. Also color selection is highly limited with Ceramic.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2013, 04:13:49 PM »
This list shows it as an option:
http://www.mtsac.edu/~cliff/storage/gs/Motorcycle_Rim_Width_Tire_Size_Chart.pdf

Doesn't make it right, if you look hard enough you will find anything you want on the internet. I'm not making this up and its not my opinion, I have a lot of experience with setting bikes up over nearly 35 years, a 150 is too big for a 3.5 inch rim....Simple as that...
In saying that, you fit what you want, but i will give anyone on the forum the same advice as i am giving you. You are fitting bigger rims allowing better tire choices so i assume that you want a good handling bike..?  Over tiring the bike will make it handle worse, not better, if you are just doing it for looks it still isn't right but its also your choice......

If you want reliable tire fitting charts , go to the tire manufacturers web sites..
The chart I provided was made using the tire manufacturers input. I agree with what you say about stuff on the internet, so why should I believe what you say? I assume because I posted other options for that size wheel that you assume I want to go that big, you would be wrong and would know that had you read my post in detail. I am going to fit the smallest safe tire on that wheel. If you have seen my other bike you would know I am not a rookie at this game, BEEN DOING THIS LONGER THAN YOU.

Thats an interesting assumption, i would have thought that if you had "been doing this longer than me" then you would have not continued discussing putting a 150 on a 3.5 inch rim regardless of what some 3rd party chart said.... Interesting... The "options" you posted were also from some chart, you went from a 110 to a 150, some of these fitments are for front 3.5 inch rims, not rear, a 110 is under tired for a rear i wouldn't use that size on a front 3.5 either, 120 is recommended size for 3.5 front. How do i know you say ?, because i have been doing this for years, in and out of bike shops, my mates race bikes and my own modified street bikes. If you want to establish my credibility about these old bikes on the forum , just ask,  you want to know how to set up an old Honda properly using modern style parts then thats what i do.... Properly.... If you don't want any advice then fine, i'm out of here.... ;D
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Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2013, 07:30:28 PM »
Don't get your panties in a wad. I was merely correcting your blanket statement of a 140 is the widest tire that can fit a 3.5" wheel. You made no mention of whether it was a front wheel or rear. I must assume from your statement that there is no wheel on earth that a 150 would be appropriate. I don't think that is the case. I never once went from a 110 to a 150.  I did mention that a 110-70,120-70, or a 130-60 would give me the clearance needed without issue. In your infinite wisdom of how to set up an old Honda properly using modern style parts then thats what i do, you have not answered the question of what size tire I should run on this combination. I thrive on making things people say can't be done possible.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 08:39:22 PM »
Quote
Don't get your panties in a wad. I was merely correcting your blanket statement of a 140 is the widest tire that can fit a 3.5" wheel. You made no mention of whether it was a front wheel or rear.

Its OBVIOUSLY the rear on a CBR 600 of the model you are using..... Stop putting words into my mouth...

Quote
You made no mention of whether it was a front wheel or rear.

No, i didn't need to, I know its the rear and if you don't you are in trouble...ITS THAT OBVIOUS, what are you talking about...? Your model cbr  did not have a 3.5 inch front rim for a start it has a 2.5 inch front ..... {but what do i know  ::)}

Quote
. I must assume from your statement that there is no wheel on earth that a 150 would be appropriate

Then you would be obviously wrong... ::)  How the hell did you come to that conclusion...?  Considering that i am going to use a 160 on a 4.5 inch rim and a 150 on a 4.25 and a 140 on a 3.5  inch rim,  your assumptions would again be wrong, maybe before you start assuming everything ,you may try assuming that maybe someone else may know what they are talking about, to assume everyone is wrong is stupid in itself......

Quote
I never once went from a 110 to a 150.

I told you after you said "I just need to find the widest skinny tire I can put on this 3.5" wheel" I said that a 140 is the widest tire recommended for that size rim, you said

Quote
Actually a 150-80 or 150-90 will also fit. That rim calls for a 5" tire.
and

Quote
I can choose form 110-70, 120-70,130-60

So yes, you went from a 110 to a 150  and if you know as much as you say you do you would know also that a 110 tire is wrong on a 3.5 inch rear rim

Quote
you have not answered the question of what size tire I should run on this combination.

And i thought, 
Quote
"i've been doing this longer than you"
  Meant that you already had some idea, now you have me assuming, silly me.... :o

Its not real hard to work out work out that honda had a 130 on the rear and a 110 on the front of that model CBR so i would assume that they are the tire sizes that worked well on those wheels, {i'm sure Honda did their homework}, that would be an obvious starting point.....?  110 is as big as i would go on the 2.5 inch front, and 140 would be as big as  i would go on the rear....  I know for a fact that those sizes will work well.

Quote
I thrive on making things people say can't be done possible.


Good for you, i didn't say anything couldn't be done ....
The only thing i said you 'shouldn't do" not "can't be done" is fit incorrect size tires.
someone that doesn't know better  puts oversized tires on the wrong rims,  if thats what that statement refers too, apart from that I have no idea of the relevance of that statement at all.  do a search and look at what i'm doing with my bikes dude, 43mm forks, custom triple clamps to retain the correct offset and  trail, wide rims, modified alloy swingarms , bigger brakes, fuel injection and piles more.  Maybe before you make your self look more ridiculous  you should do a forum search about suspension and frame mods on these old bikes, you will then find out that, indeed i do know a bit about suspension set up and performance {that includes wheels}. I'm out of this thread now as it is clear you are just trying to be a tool, where as, i was trying to help....


« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 08:44:12 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2013, 09:27:04 PM »
Retro, my mistake was not understanding your comment of a 140 is the widest that would fit the wheel in my application. I read it as a 140 was the widest that could be fitted to a 3.5" rim. My apologies. As for doing this longer than you I meant building championship caliper cars and motorcycles. I have just recently started playing with the smaller Jap bikes and taking vintage bikes and upgrading them to more modern suspension and wheels and brakes. My main bike is a 1350cc Harley XR Sportster that will set a world speed record the first week of June. This Honda CB400f was given to me and I just wanted to upgrade as mention and it seemed general consensus was that the CBR stuff was pretty much a bolt in affair. I realized that I may have fitment issues in the back that's why I was asking about the smallest tire I could run on that rim as it will still probably be bigger than what was stock. I had to modify a Ninga 250R rear wheel to run on my XR to allow use of the cush drive. Keep in mind my bike is left side brake so I had to run the wheel backwards and had clearance issues on it so I will run a front tire backwards on it to accomplish what I need. I know you probably think I am crazy.



Waiting on the motor to come back next week;
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 09:29:43 PM by Powderman »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2013, 09:52:48 PM »
Retro, my mistake was not understanding your comment of a 140 is the widest that would fit the wheel in my application. I read it as a 140 was the widest that could be fitted to a 3.5" rim. My apologies. As for doing this longer than you I meant building championship caliper cars and motorcycles. I have just recently started playing with the smaller Jap bikes and taking vintage bikes and upgrading them to more modern suspension and wheels and brakes


No problems man, i don't generally post advice, especially when it comes to suspension or wheels, if i don't know what i'm on about, I love modifying just about anything as well, just don't like cutting corners for "looks" like a lot of the cafe crowd.... ;D {that'll go over well}
Look, you can put a 150 on a 3.5 inch rim, maybe even a 160, but common sense should tell you that it pinches in the tire's contact patch leaving less tire on the road, it also wears out the middle of the tire as well lessening tire life, there's a few guys here that have already found that out and i also did this a long time ago before i knew any better. In saying that, in your case , you should be able to put a 140 in that swingarm easily, you have a 17 inch rim so you'll have more clearence at the front of the arm, the stock 750 arm is roughly the same size, only a little shorter than the 550 or 500 and i have some pics here somewhere with a 16 on a 4.5 inch rim and it just clears the arm., you should be fine with a 140 and it will still look fat on the 400.

Here's a pic of a K2 750 of mine with a 3.5 on the front with a 120 tire and a 4.5 on the rear with a 180 slick, the rear tire is completely wrong size for that rim but thats how i bought it, i'll run a 160 tire on the 4.5 eventually. It just clears the swingarm in that shot ,  i had to shave down the rear sprocket carrier and use a 10mm offset front sprocket to get the chain to lined up....

This is an old pic



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750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2013, 11:11:40 PM »
Would you recommend the stock CBR600 130-80-V17 on this smaller bike or could I safely go smaller, say a 120-70 or 130-60 for this particular application. You said a 140 will fit without problem but is that tire a bit big for this bike?

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 1977 Cb400f Cafe Build
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2013, 02:18:53 AM »
Would you recommend the stock CBR600 130-80-V17 on this smaller bike or could I safely go smaller, say a 120-70 or 130-60 for this particular application. You said a 140 will fit without problem but is that tire a bit big for this bike?

You would need to measure the inside width of the swingarm to see if a 140 tire will fit, i see no reason that a 130 would not fit though, they are not really that wide, and i would stay with the 130-80 because it will be taller than the 130-60 profile tire, you have already reduced the wheels diameter by an inch, if it were me i wouldn't go any smaller as you will lose too much ground clearance. The 750 have a small back rim width and i was very surprised how wide i could go without touching the swingarm, it gets tight but as long as the wheel is aligned properly it should never touch the arm.. You may have to bend the rear brake arm stay, sometimes they rub on wider tires, i have bent them before and it worked well, if your good with the tools and have access to a tig welder you could hook up a cable rear brake, there's a couple of guys here that have done that conversion, i suppose it depends on how much work you want to do, if your anything like me i just work out the mods and do them. its half the fun and i like being different...  There's a guy here that has box section swingarms for the 400, you could definitely go wide then...?
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.