Author Topic: 915cc kit and porting ideas?  (Read 3217 times)

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Offline haredondo

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915cc kit and porting ideas?
« on: June 16, 2013, 03:30:14 PM »
Hi all, I'm working on my K5 rebuild (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=122801.0), and while the motor is apart I keep getting tempted to look into improving performance a bit. I've been looking at the 915cc stage two kit from dynoman, but I have a couple of questions. Can the stock sleeves be bored out to fit? Or would I need to also get new ones?
I assume I would also need quite a bit of head work to get the best out of the improved displacement. Anyone have any idea of what kind of work would be best and approximate price? I'll try to contact MRieck on this issue as well, I've seen his work on the forum and something that looks that good must be expensive!
Would I need a new exhaust? I have the stock 7 chambered HM341's on my K5 and I'm wondering if they are too restrictive and dampen the power improvements.
Lastly, would the stock Keihin carbs be able to handle the improved flow?

Am I getting in over my head? I can afford the dynoman kit and probably the sleeves, but it seems like all the other parts might accumulate into a big expense and I'm not entirely sure how much performance will be gained. Thanks for the help!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2013, 03:37:13 PM »
Lots of power locked up in the heads on these bikes, Yes, you will need sleeves, you would be far better off with better {bigger}carbs if you are chasing HP, no use going 915 if staying with stock carbs, same goes for the HM 341's, 300's would be better but a good 4into 1 will be best...  There are good HP gains to be had with all the right gear, its not cheap so i suppose it depends on how much you wish to spend.... ;)
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750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2013, 03:42:41 PM »
It's $300 extra for the sleeves with the Stage II kit.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2013, 04:16:33 PM »
One thing leads to another. 915 must be resleeved. Rods would be REAL wise. The head should NOT be neglected. I've seen stock carbs handle some serious HP but bigger are better.

Now if you didn't have pockets that deep the 836 or 849 could avoid most of that but a little head work would make those pop just not close to doing a 915 with the goodies.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2013, 04:25:43 PM »
But, boring the new sleeves to size once fitted is normally needed, right?  Fitting sleeves is possible for you to do at home if you have an oven, freezer, and good press (10-20 ton). But machine work is generally required for that cylinder to size them to the pistons and the cylinder being decked for flatness.
You can't do motor work on a car or motorcycle for cheap anywhere to my knowledge unless you do it all yourself and then it is less, but still pricey.   Considering that all internal combustion motors are essentially pumping air and fuel in, to increase that intake and exhaust for more performance you have to increase the entire system from beginning to end.

915 might be desirable but it comes at a price to unleash the potential.   Adding 40 hp to any motor is expensive.  Not sure what a 915 is actually adding but I would guess you are in the 100 hp range with the right bits in a mild build to that displacement.

Is spending 2-3K on your 750 worth it to you to increase the performance a lot?  It is cheaper than buying another bike with that performance level stock and if that bike exists, then it will not be like your SOHC bike in size, weight, or riding position.

Just a few points to ponder...

David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 04:39:08 PM »
No need to bore new sleeves if they are supplied with the pistons, 3-4K is very conservative, I've got over 2K in just one head and thats not unusual. I have around 7K in one engine and i haven't finished yet.... :o
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2013, 04:46:27 PM »
No need to bore new sleeves if they are supplied with the pistons, 3-4K is very conservative, I've got over 2K in just one head and thats not unusual. I have around 7K in one engine and i haven't finished yet.... :o

True, going fast is expensive. Guess with most exhausts being 700-1200 and head work being a couple grand, motor piston kits being a good chunk of change, etc.  It adds up fast.
Generally adding more speed and power will also spell lots of re-engineering of brake system as well; to give better/more brake performance to compensate for the added go-fast injected into the bike...

There is no replacement for added displacement...as the racers say...

David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2013, 04:48:31 PM »
No need to bore new sleeves if they are supplied with the pistons, 3-4K is very conservative, I've got over 2K in just one head and thats not unusual. I have around 7K in one engine and i haven't finished yet.... :o

True, going fast is expensive. Guess with most exhausts being 700-1200 and head work being a couple grand, motor piston kits being a good chunk of change, etc.  It adds up fast.
Generally adding more speed and power will also spell lots of re-engineering of brake system as well; to give better/more brake performance to compensate for the added go-fast injected into the bike...

There is no replacement for added displacement...as the racers say...

I have all the suspension , brakes and frame covered as well, I'm trying to break Mike Rieck's record for the "million dollar CB"... :o
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2013, 05:49:45 PM »
One thing you HAVE to consider!! When you re-sleeve for the 915cc kit , the sleeves are ALMOST touching each other between 1/2 and 3/4 not much cooling room. The machine work to resize you cases to accept the BIG BORE sleeves cost some COIN. I have an 836cc engine and it is a big difference from stock but I don't know how well anything bigger than 836cc could handle a LONG continuous ride  do to HEAT. IF you do go BIGGER I'd suggest an oil cooler to help keep the temps down.

Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2013, 07:47:49 PM »
The block must be heated to drop the original sleeves out. Then the block must be bored to accept the new sleeves. Then the new sleeves must be press fitted and bored to fit the pistons. Then the cylinders must be decked. The CycleX 915 kit does not require the top case to be opened for the sleeves. Oil cooler is a great idea but I wouldn't do stop and go in town at traffic signals. Probably OK on the road as long as you're not near Phoenix in August etc.

Anyway, I'm thinking you're getting the idea from us. 836/849 is the line that you draw between money and serious money. A simple bore job for the new kit, a cam and new springs and some headwork to make it pop but not the Stage IV head stuff that costs $2000.   
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline haredondo

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2013, 09:33:49 PM »
Wow, you guys aren't kidding. That's some serious money and work! I don't think I could manage these things in a short timeframe (It has come to the point where my urge to ride is battling my urge to have a perfect and beautiful machine). I guess I'll just have to get another engine and build it up over time  :o.
Thanks for all the information!
Retro Rocket, I need to look at your build thread.. it sounds impressive!
Jerry, I think I'll stay stock for now but hopefully I'll be working on a high performance engine build in the near future.

-Hugo

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2013, 09:37:38 PM »

Retro Rocket, I need to look at your build thread.. it sounds impressive!
.
-Hugo

I'm a slack ass mate, I have 2 other to put together first, a 900 kitted one and a 970 kitted one.... :o
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2013, 10:51:06 PM »

Retro Rocket, I need to look at your build thread.. it sounds impressive!
.
-Hugo

I'm a slack ass mate, I have 2 other to put together first, a 900 kitted one and a 970 kitted one.... :o

Oh #$%* Mick, why don't you do a 1080 or a stroker instead of those intermediate ones? :) I'm saving the 1080 for last with the 900 first then the 1000.  ;)
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2013, 12:53:33 AM »

Retro Rocket, I need to look at your build thread.. it sounds impressive!
.
-Hugo

I'm a slack ass mate, I have 2 other to put together first, a 900 kitted one and a 970 kitted one.... :o

Oh #$%* Mick, why don't you do a 1080 or a stroker instead of those intermediate ones? :) I'm saving the 1080 for last with the 900 first then the 1000.  ;)

They are both getting sold Jerry, and I already have all the engine parts for those 2, the one i'm keeping has one of Mike Rieks 1000cc billet blocks with nikasil bores, his big port head, fuel injection and tons of other trick stuff. Over 10 years ago I started collecting bits to build one bike, now there's almost enough stuff to build 3 plus some stuff i have to sell,  this sh1t is addictive... :o ;D
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 03:19:40 AM »
The cost of overboring a motor is pretty high at most machine shops. Not uncommon for a 836 or 849
as Jerry suggests to cost $400 or more and that is with the stock sleeves. The 592, commonly referred to as a 605, overbore I generally here the same 400 or higher number quoted for the cb550. In the case of the cheap $100/120 big block cb550 motors this is as big as you can go with stock sleeves and about as big as practical. The cb750 can go bigger but as Jerry has said, it starts getting into "real money". (That's a joke, because it is some pretty good size coin just to do any size rebuild if you are changing pistons, rings, valves, springs, chains, cams, etc.) 

There is a fellow on ebay a few have used who offers overbores in the $125 range and is said to do good work. Shipping will push the cost up a bit, probably a bit less than $100 more both ways, depending on box size and weight. His userid on ebay is jjhooper. He will do an overbore up to 5mm larger for $124 plus freight to match your pistons or a set he sells you.

Rebuild is extensive with most wear parts being replaced and lots of expensive machine work for boring and valve grinding, whereas, a refresh is much less intrusive and may only be a hone and re-ring, new seals, lap valves by hand, etc. So, bewary of so called rebuilt motors by others, unless there are receipts showing  machine work and new parts purchases.
 A refreshed motor is not bad, but unless parts like cam chains and tensioners are replaced then it is a bandaid with limited life. Anything showing wear needs replaced or you will just be back in the motor when those worn parts fail or reach end of life. Cam chains go before the main chain and tensioners for both on 750s should be replaced if mileage and wear indicate they are due. 550 doesn't have a main chain tensioner so it wears into case when it has stretched too much.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 03:28:36 AM by RAFster122S »
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline PeWe

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 03:48:05 AM »
836  10.5:1
This is very common and higher CR makes a difference. Possible to bore a little bit more to 849  if needed after some years. I bored my CB750 to 836 for summer 1984.
I have now  installed my 3:rd sets of 65mm pistons without any other change than brushing the cylinders, last time on my own with FlexHone brush. Total use only 30.000km/18750 miles though.

Ported head + cam makes a lot (my head got 34mm F2 inlet valves when ported 1983-84)

I used cam Action Fours SS-1 that have similar figures as WebCam 41. Very nice engine with that setup. Much more power and still a good tourer for longer trips without any problems. Carbs in the beginning was Mikuni Smoothbore VM29 but changed back to OEM when the Mikuni inlet rubbers had pore quality, cracked very quick. No big difference with OEM carbs.

Mikuni now changed to fit OEM rubbers and finally back on the bike again after almost 30 years

I have replaced SS-1 cam with a CX-7 from CycleX to get some fun new experience since I have no plans of longer trips when back on the road again since 23 years sleeping.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 10:50:19 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline MRieck

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 04:51:58 AM »
I charged 375.00 for the last 915 I did. That included bead blasting, sleeve R/R, boring and light decking. Boring the block will "window" the air passages between 1/2 and 3/4 about 90% of the time. Paint the cylinder to prevent rust. You have to bore the upper case unless you use the CycleX tapered sleeves. You still may have to touch up areas to get a fit.
 Porting and an OS intake valve (with the valve seat bored) works very well as pulling the sleeve wall back with the larger bore really deshrouds the valve....much better fill.
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: 915cc kit and porting ideas?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 01:35:04 PM »
Well you guys just ruined my day,my 900 dreams went out of the window.guess ill have to get my 954 ready to race
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3