Author Topic: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Rebuilt to NEW OLD STOCK -- PIX ON PAGE 50  (Read 236867 times)

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Offline Hummel

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #150 on: December 26, 2013, 03:22:43 am »
About the cross headed bolts, if you don't have ruined the cross head yet, then take a 1/4" wrench with a bit that fits in the bolt and a clamp that can go around the motor. Mount the wrench in the bolt and the clamp to hold the wrench in the bolt, then you have the bit 100% in contact with the bolt and you can loosen it? WORKS EVERY TIME . :)

Hard to explain in English but hope you get the idea :)

Hummel



Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #151 on: December 26, 2013, 04:05:12 am »
Yep, that's a good idea Hummel, I love "Thinking outside the box" type answers like yours, hopefully Edward will get them out with just an impact driver, but if not, a big woodworking clamp used as described would work, for sure! Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #152 on: December 26, 2013, 07:34:49 pm »
I have just sent Ed a 3 pound box of persuasion.... My industrial Vessel Impact Driver Set. This is their monster $80 Piece that is no longer carried in the US. He'll knock a hole through the other side of the case when the transmission and shaft go flying out in retreat of the sledge hammer blow it would take to hurt this tool. I had a 100 of those 6 x 20mm screws, so 6 of those went in the box too. I think I drilled my heads off and replaced the screws 6-7 years ago when I did mine like Mark commented. I assumed thread locker had been used on Ed's and the surface area with the countersink is 3~4 times what a normal screw is.

Ed, don't forget those pieces are aluminum. The tool will take the blows, but I'm worried your cases may not. After you've excercised the monster I've sent you and you still don't have them loose, try that drill bit I told you about on the phone and Mark has mentioned. We're all behind you on this!

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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #153 on: December 26, 2013, 09:59:50 pm »
I have just sent Ed a 3 pound box of persuasion.... My industrial Vessel Impact Driver Set. This is their monster $80 Piece that is no longer carried in the US. He'll knock a hole through the other side of the case when the transmission and shaft go flying out in retreat of the sledge hammer blow it would take to hurt this tool. I had a 100 of those 6 x 20mm screws, so 6 of those went in the box too. I think I drilled my heads off and replaced the screws 6-7 years ago when I did mine like Mark commented. I assumed thread locker had been used on Ed's and the surface area with the countersink is 3~4 times what a normal screw is.

Ed, don't forget those pieces are aluminum. The tool will take the blows, but I'm worried your cases may not. After you've excercised the monster I've sent you and you still don't have them loose, try that drill bit I told you about on the phone and Mark has mentioned. We're all behind you on this!

Regards, Gordon
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Thank you every one, can't wait to get back to it. Will patiently wait for Gordon's beast before drilling. Now that I have a replacement set coming in, I will be careful with the crankcase knowing that there is a solid backup. Family still out here, been a lot of fun but not a minute free to work on the bike though....definitely will make time to get SOME update and progress tomorrow.

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #154 on: December 27, 2013, 05:32:08 pm »
OK I made some time today to work on the head while I wait for other things. Right off the bat, I notice a missing dowel (someone please tell me these are replaceable). One weirdo valve has white gunk on it, two others (#4 exh and #2 inl) are possibly bent or have bad guides just based on how hard it was to get them out, while the remaining ones slipped right off. Also, there was a valve seal that was torn at the retainer ring. The dial and squeeze compressor made quick work of the springs. Had them all out in no time. To be safe, I padded the other end as to not damage the head. Pic 3 is #1 and #2.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 10:27:52 am by edwardmorris »

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #155 on: December 27, 2013, 05:36:14 pm »
#3 and #4, then the exhaust side.

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2013, 05:39:54 pm »
These look so horrid, I'm hesitant about removing them but I do need to clean this up. Heat the head, PB blaster and JIS #3? Or is there a more sane way?

Offline calj737

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #157 on: December 28, 2013, 04:53:14 am »
Exactly that way! Heat them, soak them, heat them, soak them. Then try to remove them. If they don't budge, repeat steps 1&2.

You can also use an electric driver/drill with a JIS bit. Start with a torque setting around 4, vibrate the screw, then increase torque step-by-step. Allow it to vibrate the screw at each stage. This helps release the screw. But dot his after heat and PB Blaster. It will work, just take your time. And the electric impact is more effective than your wrist as you can't vibrate the bit in the slots.
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #158 on: December 28, 2013, 05:53:20 pm »
The industrial impact loaner from Gordon came in today, and make quick work of those pesky screws. Two hits and all four came loose.

Remember how everyone said leave the drum alone? Me being the noob dumbass got carried away and said hey, maybe this beast can get the drum screw out too! Two good whacks and yippie! its coming out. Hold the drum in hand and cue tears. Damned screw broke in half!!!! Added to list of problems and filed away for when I have the transmission out.

I started loosening a few case bolts, couple questions before I split the case.

1)Do the rods look stock? Will the bend/distort if I put the cases upside down on them?
2)The neutral/oil press switch, does it unscrew or pull out?
3)The timing chain, I did see a master link on it so I'm guessing it isn't stock. Should I leave it or take it apart before opening the cases?
4)Any other gotchas before I attempt opening up the cases?

I will be reviewing the books, but any expert advice to stop blunders like the one above is appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 05:58:17 pm by edwardmorris »

Offline MCRider

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #159 on: December 28, 2013, 05:59:19 pm »
The oil pressure switch in pic #2 screws out. IT does not have to be removed.

The neutral switch (not pictured) is underneath the engine, pulls out after removing the hold down bolt and tab. But also, does not have to come out.
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #160 on: December 29, 2013, 11:57:35 am »
Thanks MCRider, I got the oil pressure switch out because it didn't fight, but I left the neutral switch alone (found it underneath). I've got all the bolts out (cross checked the factory manual, yes, they are all out) but the cases refuse to budge. Is there a gasket I need to scrape out? I don't think the crankcase was ever opened, eventhough the shifter, clutch, alternator are all missing parts or have replacements. I'm trying to lift the bottom case off of the top one. Hondaman's book suggests only one pry point by the sprocket but I'm guessing even that needs the cases to at least start coming apart. Suggestions?

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #161 on: December 29, 2013, 02:05:52 pm »
G'Day Edward, well it looks like you've learned a valuable lesson about going against the advice of the experienced members here, be careful with the selector drum, those pins need to go in a certain way and if you mess up their order, you won't get any gears, that's why we said to leave it alone, the whole assembly just pulls out, so you didn't need to remove that screw. Your rods look to be stock, along with your cylinder studs.

Speaking of screws, make sure that all of the case screws and lower crankcase bolts are out before you start trying to pry the case halves apart. There should not be one screw visible on the cases, anywhere. That includes all the screws on top of the cases, inside the starter motor recess, etc. A few whacks from a plastic hammer around the joining surfaces should be all that you need to seperate the case halves, don't be tempted to do anything more drastic, or you'll break something. Again. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #162 on: December 29, 2013, 02:26:12 pm »
Thanks Terry, I sure did learn the hard way. I just double checked, I don't see any bolts anywhere other than the oil pan and neutral switch. I've been searching as well, and I did try tapping gently all around with a mallet, but still no luck. I don't wanna tap any harder unless that's the last resort. I will go out there and look again both sides and do a count to make sure I have all the bolts out. The cases are tied so close together its almost as if the aluminum has melded together. No gasket obviously but the glue has all squished out and the gap is too small for even a razor to slip in.

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #163 on: December 29, 2013, 04:09:27 pm »
Mallet was too soft. After wrestling with it and right before getting frustrated I tapped the back end (3 heavy bolt side) with a regular hammer and heard a distinctive sound of a porcelain vase cracking. It rung a bell in my head, I recalled that MCRider had done up a good write up for splitting the cases (search is a wonderful thing) and he mentioned that when you tap with a mallet, listen for a sound that makes the cases seem hollow. The seal gave out and it was moving. After that, it was a long 30mins of lifting, sliding in a wood shim, repeat till all the dowels let go of the bottom case and voila, victory! First thing I notice after opening it up, why is there a piston ring??? hanging out by the sprocket?

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #164 on: December 29, 2013, 04:16:51 pm »
Bearing wear, closer look and the other end. What do you guys think? Now that I have these open, I can work away on piece at a time as the holiday is over and I return to the grind.

Offline flybox1

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #165 on: December 29, 2013, 04:49:27 pm »
I found crank bearings at partzilla for under $9...
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #166 on: December 29, 2013, 05:49:44 pm »
... why is there a piston ring??? hanging out by the sprocket?

Making good progress!

That's not a piston ring.. .that's the final drive outer bearing retainer... it belongs there... you're good.
- Chris
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #167 on: December 30, 2013, 09:08:21 am »
Question. What are these rods? Mod or stock? What are they meant to do? The pic is from tweakin's K1 build




Offline MCRider

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #168 on: December 30, 2013, 09:29:26 am »
Question. What are these rods? Mod or stock? What are they meant to do? The pic is from tweakin's K1 build


He replaced the main bearing bolts (OEM) with heavy duty studs and nuts. High performance mod. Holds the cases and crank more stiffly in lne when twisting the high horsepower.  I did it to mine as well. Totally unnecessary in my case, but that never stopped me. Opens up a possible leaky situation if not gooped right.

Old Biz: I don't remember writing about the hollow sound, but that's right. Another case where the tiny chisel could come in handy. Besides what Terry said about making sure ALL the bolts are out. Place the tiny chisel in an appropriate spot and tap it till you hear the hollow sound.

But you're past that now.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 09:31:41 am by MCRider »
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #169 on: December 30, 2013, 10:41:55 am »
Ed,

If you're even thinking about removing the studs for either clean-up or replacement - make absolutely sure we talk first. I've ruined 2 crankcases in my past and both were from failed attempts to remove cyclinder or case half studs. There is a trick to removal and I've followed the advice of my old machinist friend, Mr. Charles. He has removed hundreds of studs from aluminum heads over the years without failure. I on the otherhand ruined 2 cases in just 20 until I followed his method.

First, only remove them if you have to for replacement.
Second, never ever use a tap in the threads - those are supposed to be a tight, taper like fit. A tap in those stud holes is not good.
Third, you "Heat" the assembly in a preheated oven at 250F for exactly 10 minutes - no more, no less. You want to heat the aluminum, not the steel studs. Longer and the studs expand from the heat, less and the aluminum won't heat. 250F.
Fourth, use 2 Visegrips in the 9 and 3 o'clock positions (point is you want them directly opposed) so you can "TWIST" left and not add a side load that only 1 wrench will do. Think of a T wrench - you want 100% energy turning the stud, not loading the side.

I've done everyone of mine this way since and still get a "pucker factor" because these don't give a warning - they SNAP and then you've got a hard piece of steel in a hole surounded by soft aluminum...Not good.

Here is my 836 with the heavy studs installed top and bottom, but as said this is not required. Mine are there because I wasn't sure where I was going to stop with the building of horsepower. Old age caught up and I have more sense today - I don't need to go 130 on a 40 year old bike that doesn't handle or have the brakes for it!!

Best Regards, Gordon




 
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #170 on: December 30, 2013, 02:40:41 pm »
Thank you Terry, MCRider and Gordon for the info, incredible help. I'm not building a racer, so I'm going to skip the crank bearing studs. I haven't removed the cylinder studs, and from seeing various other builds, people have left them on even when painting the cases so definitely leaving them alone (how the lesson of the shifter drum screw haunts me now). Some indirect progress today, less and less time when working full time but as long as something is moving along, I'll stay motivated. A hit to the wallet but hey, what good is the bike if I die on the first ride?

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #171 on: December 30, 2013, 02:50:30 pm »
Haven't had time to take better pix of the frame, freezing hell outside and too tired. I will take some better ones on a better day. My kickstand looks awesome though, added 2" to it to make the bike not lean till the carbs start spilling. But my welder didn't want to mess with the center stand. He thinks its a little bent/warped. I bought it from a member here and I really can't tell because I don't have a second one to compare. Does it look warped or is it by design (look at the chain side, with the extension)?. I was going to have an inch taken off the center stand to spare my back. He says he can cut it and straighten it out, but wanted me to be sure that it was bent and not designed as such.  You can tell from the the small rod welded on the side that it looks bent. Ignore the corroded feet, he's going to redo those as well. Should I look for another one or salvage this?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:55:21 pm by edwardmorris »

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #172 on: December 30, 2013, 03:39:08 pm »
G'Day Edward, your frame mods look great, your welder has done a great job. Yep, your centre stand is bent, as is your side stand, which is probably why it leaned over so far, if you just bought a straight one, it wouldn't lean over so far. As good as his welding obviously is, leaning 500+ pounds on a stand that's been welded is a leap of faith, in my humble opinion.........

Re: shortening your centre stand, Ron (MC Rider) only did that because he was using a smaller rear wheel, which meant he needed more effort to raise the bike onto the stand. If you're using the stock 18 inch rear wheel that is unnecessary, and will make it much harder to remove your rear wheel for future maintenance. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #173 on: December 30, 2013, 05:29:08 pm »
Thanks Terry, such is my terrible luck with the PO. The bike didn't come with a center stand so I bought it from someone here. Guess its going in the recycle. I'll find another one and get it shortened. Details on why I want it shortened here

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132683.0

The kickstand was on the bike, but I couldn't tell if it was bent. The welder did a dowel style weld on the extension with lapping inserts. He assured me it was good to go. He owned a 72 K2 back in the day as well so he knows the bike. Should I take the kickstand back and have it straightened out a little?

Offline calj737

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #174 on: December 30, 2013, 05:49:24 pm »
I don't know whether a 550 center stand would fit, but I have 2 from bikes I've just disassembled and you're welcome to either of them. I'll even bead blast them to raw metal for you.

Check around and let me know if it's worth the effort  to ship them out to you .
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis