Author Topic: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia  (Read 5665 times)

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Offline nickjtc

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Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« on: August 25, 2006, 02:37:49 PM »
Vancouver Sun, Page B05, 25-August-2006
 
Police are calling on the provincial government to change the motorcycle helmet law to prevent the use of flimsy "beanie" helmets.
The small, skull-cap helmets, which do not provide full-face protection, are illegal across Canada except in B.C.

"They don't provide any protection at all," said Surrey RCMP Cpl. Roger Morrow. "Our helmet laws are in need of attention."

Morrow said of the three motorcycle accidents that took place in the Lower Mainland in the past week, two were fatalities. At least two of the riders were wearing beanie helmets. In the latest accidents, a man died Monday on the Pattullo Bridge when he crashed his Harley-Davidson motorcycle after weaving in and out of traffic. The next day, another man was riding his motorcycle on Highway 10 when he crashed into the rear of a tractor cutting grass at the side of the highway. He is in critical condition in hospital.

On August 18, a 60-year-old man driving a Harley-Davidson motorcycle was struck by a car on Highway 15 and 96th. He died later in hospital.

Beanie helmets are not illegal in B.C. because of the province's outdated helmet law, which came into effect in 1987. RCMP and municipal police forces, concerned about the safety of these helmets, have asked the government to update the helmet legislation, Morrow said. The B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police also has asked the government to change the law with the aim of providing a new restriction requiring bikers to wear helmets that meet safety standards.

"What we're looking for is enforceable helmet legislation," RCMP Staff-Sgt. Ted Emanuel, traffic services program coordinator, said Thursday.

He said beanie helmets are "toys that have little, if any ability to reduce injuries. It gives them an appearance of wearing a helmet."

"That's our dilemma," Emanuel said, adding that B.C.'s current helmet law cannot be enforced because it's out of date. Until the law is changed, police cannot issue beanie wearers a ticket for not wearing a helmet.

"The issue is not to issue tickets but to reduce the number of fatalities we're having," he said.

Many motorcycle accident fatalities aren't the biker's fault but are caused by driver error of vehicles that hit motorcyclists, he added.

Police strongly recommend that motorcyclists buy helmets approved by two U.S. testing agencies—Snell and American National Standards Institute (ANSI)—which provide lists of safety-approved helmets on their websites, Emanuel pointed out. He said there is no Canadian agency that does safety testing of motorcycle helmets.

"Those that are using approved helmets should be replaced every five years," he said, adding that old helmets become brittle and deteriorate with exposure to the sun's ultraviolet rays.

Adele Tompkins, executive director of the B.C. Coalition of Motorcyclists, said the issue is one of freedom of choice—people should be free to choose a full-face helmet or a beanie helmet.

"For a lot of people, it's about not wanting to wear a helmet, period," she said, pointing out that some U.S. states do not require motorcyclists to wear helmets.

Some bikers believe the weight of a full-face helmet can cause neck injuries in a crash, Tompkins added.

But Doug McClelland of the Insurance Corp. of B.C. dismissed that reasoning.

"There are some people out there who believe wearing a seat belt is unsafe, but it's just an excuse," he said. "Study after study shows approved helmets are safer than non-approved helmets."

For some bikers, a beanie helmet makes a statement about being rebellious, McClelland said.

"I firmly believe motorcyclists who choose these helmets know they are choosing an unsafe piece of equipment and do so to make a statement," he added.

He said ICBC doesn't keep statistics on how many injuries or fatalities involve motorcyclists wearing beanie helmets. "It's not something we track."
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2006, 02:43:30 PM »
I've got an idea:

Get the government out of people's lives and let them make choices for themselves and then GASP! live with the consequences and/or responsibilities of that decision.

How novel.

I'm pro-helmet, but I am anti-helmet legislation.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 02:59:55 PM by GroovieGhoulie »

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2006, 02:56:31 PM »
I've got an idea:

Get the government out of people's lives and let them make choices for themselves and then GASP! live with the consequences and or/responsibilities of that decision.

How novel.

I'm pro-helmet, but I am anti-helmet legislation.
Same, I have to admit that I have ridden without my helmet a few times. My wife reminds me to something I used to say. "No Helmet = No Brain" ;D

Offline mlinder

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2006, 03:22:07 PM »
I've got an idea:

Get the government out of people's lives and let them make choices for themselves and then GASP! live with the consequences and/or responsibilities of that decision.

How novel.

I'm pro-helmet, but I am anti-helmet legislation.

Only problem with that, is if someone recieved a head injury and goes into coma because they are wearing a #$%*ty helmet, and they have no health insurance, the tax payers have to pay for mr. numbnutts hospital stay, even if they are there for years. Course, healthcare is free in Canada anyway, so doesn't mean as much as the States.
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2006, 03:28:53 PM »
I've got an idea:

Get the government out of people's lives and let them make choices for themselves and then GASP! live with the consequences and/or responsibilities of that decision.

How novel.

I'm pro-helmet, but I am anti-helmet legislation.

Only problem with that, is if someone recieved a head injury and goes into coma because they are wearing a #$%*ty helmet, and they have no health insurance, the tax payers have to pay for mr. numbnutts hospital stay, even if they are there for years. Course, healthcare is free in Canada anyway, so doesn't mean as much as the States.

I admit the system is not perfect, but that leads to my next point:

I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR ANYONE ELSE'S SCREW-UPS.  THEY BOUGHT THE TICKET, THEY GOTTA TAKE THE RIDE!!!

We need to revamp the Health insurance system in this country to one embracing PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!  You can't pay?  Sorry pal, you're dicked.

Mexico has a system like that.  Let me tell you a story about it:

I know a woman where I'm from that is enamoured of all things Mexico.

On one of her recent trips to the interior of Mexico she had an accident and required immediate hospitalization. What did the gracious, samaritan Mexicans do to help this injured American? NOT ONE THING UNTIL HER TREATMENT WAS PAID FOR IN FULL IN ADVANCE. You read that right. They were totally willing to see her die in pain unless they had all their money in hand first.

Harsh, but a good start.  You don't have insurance?  We'll fix you then bill you in full.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2006, 03:49:51 PM »
I understand your theory (no insurance, no care) but full family coverage is in the neighborhood of $7,000 or more per year (depending on benefits). There are folks who can barely pay the rent and put food on the table.
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2006, 04:10:39 PM »
I understand your theory (no insurance, no care) but full family coverage is in the neighborhood of $7,000 or more per year (depending on benefits). There are folks who can barely pay the rent and put food on the table.

Part of the beauty of going back to a "Pay as you go" medical system is that competitiveness would keep prices down.  The AMA (American Medical Association) and the insurance companies have a helluva racket.  I mean think about it: You want to get your car fixed, you take it to a guy, he fixes it and you pay him for services rendered.  Why should medical services be any different?  The AMA has made sure to limit the supply of doctors in this country and limit admissions to medical schools, all this in an effort to keep prices high.  Combine this with Insurance companies taking in MASSIVE profits and not paying out when a claim is filed?  Do you REALLY think that hospitals would get away with charging $25 for an aspirin or $100 for a box of tissues?  Not in a TRULY Free Market they wouldn't.

Read "The Ten Things You Can't Say in America" by Larry Elder.  He outlines the entire Medical Insurance/Doctor Racket.

Offline nickjtc

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2006, 04:27:06 PM »
Course, healthcare is free in Canada anyway, so doesn't mean as much as the States.

Not quite true, I'm afraid. We have to pay monthly premiums for our health care. For me and the missis its $96cdn per month.
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Offline Chris Schneiter

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 11:33:35 AM »
Regardless of conservative and neo-conservative ideology, we do have to pay if someone screws up and has no insurance, if not in the aspect of providing care before something happens, then after, when we have to provide care to a vegetable, because he's a ward of the state.
Yes, I do agree that Insurance is an incredible racket, but I disagree that competition will do anything about The industries greed. My Dad was a Doctor for 40 years and taught in the Med school @ U of M. Here again, I assure you that the greed isn't coming from the majority of Doctors, but from the Health admistrators, a strata of the healthcare system that didn't exist 40 years ago. The Doctors aren't the ones who are walking away with the money. In a way, Doctors have been reduced to the status of workers and have little to say about how their work is done, causing doctors to get a bad rap about how much time and energy they spend with their patients. The administrators have designed it that way to make medicine more efficient to make more money. Meanwhile, Doctors are still eaten alive by payments to insurance companies!
The big insurance companies will be untouched by competition. The competition will only eliminate the smaller companies and make the large ones stronger. I think the only thing that will help is regulation. The entire medical and insurance system needs gutting and the robber barons need to be removed.
About 3 years ago I had surgery. It went well, and because of the great insurance I had that was already expensive, my total for a 12,000.00 bill was $252.00! Then a month after surgery I got my next insurance bill. My insurance premium had nearly doubled. I couldn't afford it. Now I pay as I go. And because of this, I only go when I have to. I am also one of those "Entrepaneurs", self employed as I call it, so I have to pay my own way. There are no such things as "Benefits" for me.
We desparately need to install some sort of healthcare reform in this country, even if we have to pay with taxes. In Michigan, the unemployment rate is 7%, so all those unemployed people no longer have insurance, or have to pay for it themselves, which makes our power as a healthy workforce weakened. Our society is being dragged down.
I think the idea of lowering taxes as an all inclusive mantra is irresponsible and selfish. There are things in life that are neccesary, and health is one of them.
I hate taxes as much as anyone else, but I believe that if we want a decent standard of life, we as a country have to pay for it somehow, and I think it's only decent to take care of those who have less than we do.
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2006, 11:46:22 AM »
I think it's only decent to take care of those who have less than we do.


I think it's decent to take care of my family and loved ones and only my family and loved ones.

If you WANT to give, then give, but I have no obligation to you or anyone else, just as you don't have one to me.  The government has no RIGHT to steal my money that I earned, at gunpoint (and if you don't think it's 'gunpoint', then try not paying taxes and see how well-armed IRS agents are), and give it to someone who hasn't earned it. 

They have the POWER (via force) to do so, but no RIGHT.  I might have the "power" to kick the crap out of you, but do I get the "right" merely because I can?

Nowhere in the Constitution does it give the .gov power to to that (tax incomes using direct withholding).  The 16th Amendment you say?  It was never properly ratified, so it is technically null and void.  Of course the government regards the Constitution as no more than a "Goddamn piece of paper", so what do you expect?  Hell, withholding was enacted during WWII to help with war costs.  It was supposed to end when the war did.  We still have it.  I guarantee you that if people did like they used to and had to write a check every year, we would have a tax system reform in this country faster than you can blink.

Is there any difference from a mugger jamming a gun in your face and taking your money without your consent and the government taking your money without your consent?  Morally, there is not.  They are taking something they did not EARN.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 11:49:02 AM by GroovieGhoulie »

Offline StevieMac

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 11:53:15 AM »
I've got an idea:

Get the government out of people's lives and let them make choices for themselves and then GASP! live with the consequences and/or responsibilities of that decision.

How novel.

I'm pro-helmet, but I am anti-helmet legislation.

Only problem with that, is if someone recieved a head injury and goes into coma because they are wearing a #$%*ty helmet, and they have no health insurance, the tax payers have to pay for mr. numbnutts hospital stay, even if they are there for years. Course, healthcare is free in Canada anyway, so doesn't mean as much as the States.

But are car accidents not the #1 cause of head injuries in north America (sorry if I'm mistaken).  To me the health care cost issue is completely irrelevant if cars cause more injuries but no one ever talks about a helmet law for cars.

I'll continue to wear my DOT or SNELL approved helmet regardless of the law but I don't support laws to protect me from myself.

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Offline mlinder

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 11:54:42 AM »
I've got an idea:

Get the government out of people's lives and let them make choices for themselves and then GASP! live with the consequences and/or responsibilities of that decision.

How novel.

I'm pro-helmet, but I am anti-helmet legislation.

Only problem with that, is if someone recieved a head injury and goes into coma because they are wearing a #$%*ty helmet, and they have no health insurance, the tax payers have to pay for mr. numbnutts hospital stay, even if they are there for years. Course, healthcare is free in Canada anyway, so doesn't mean as much as the States.

But are car accidents not the #1 cause of head injuries in north America (sorry if I'm mistaken).  To me the health care cost issue is completely irrelevant if cars cause more injuries but no one ever talks about a helmet law for cars.

I'll continue to wear my DOT or SNELL approved helmet regardless of the law but I don't support laws to protect me from myself.



Perhaps they are, but percentage wise, I highly doubt that there are more head injuries caused by car wrecks than motorcycle wrecks.
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Offline StevieMac

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 12:01:28 PM »
Perhaps they are, but percentage wise, I highly doubt that there are more head injuries caused by car wrecks than motorcycle wrecks.

But if cost is truly the issue as so many claim, shouldn't the law be aimed at preventing the cause of the largest amount of injuries?  Have the law apply to bikes AND cars then......

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Offline nickjtc

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 12:11:44 PM »
Perhaps they are, but percentage wise, I highly doubt that there are more head injuries caused by car wrecks than motorcycle wrecks.
But if cost is truly the issue as so many claim, shouldn't the law be aimed at preventing the cause of the largest amount of injuries?  Have the law apply to bikes AND cars then......

Problem is, where does it all stop? Some safety laws are simple common sense; a lot aren't.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2006, 12:15:56 PM »
Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is akin to wilfully asking for death or head injury, because if you ride, you WILL wreck. That's a promise.
Quote
nalysis of linked data from the Crash Outcome Data Evaluation System (CODES) in three states with all-rider helmet laws showed that without the law, the total extra patient charges due to brain injury would have been almost doubled from $2.3 million to $4 million.
from http://www.saferoads.org/issues/fs-helmets.htm

When safety means are easy and available, and the use saves lives and money, they should be used. I think  that helmets used on daily commutes in cars may acatually CAUSE more accidents. People cant hear, line of sight would be impaired, and they'd have less chance of seeing or hearing YOU on your motorcycle. Sure, there might be less percentage of head injuries, but I'm betting accidents would rise sharply, which, again, would increase the money going to hospitals for said injuries.
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Offline nickjtc

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2006, 12:23:01 PM »
Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is akin to wilfully asking for death or head injury, because if you ride, you WILL wreck. That's a promise.

from http://www.saferoads.org/issues/fs-helmets.htm


I'm not sure I agree with you that riding a motorcycle = the inevitability of an accident. Arguably a well trained, sober, fit rider, on a well maintained machine, should never find him/herself in a situation beyond their control...............

Interesting link.
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2006, 12:26:54 PM »
My father, who has ridden for over 40 years, was taking an offramp in San Jose on his 1100 shadow. A slight lean to the right, his back tire hit something slippery and he went straght down. No rain, no bad visibility, and a very good rider.
You will wreck at some point.
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Offline StevieMac

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2006, 12:28:19 PM »
Problem is, where does it all stop?

Well that's it isn't it?  If you're going to protect us from ourselves it never ends does it?
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2006, 12:31:30 PM »
Problem is, where does it all stop?

Well that's it isn't it?  If you're going to protect us from ourselves it never ends does it?

If people want to bash their heads in, that's cool, I guess, long as I don't have to pay for their stupidity.
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Offline StevieMac

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2006, 12:37:52 PM »
I think  that helmets used on daily commutes in cars may acatually CAUSE more accidents. People cant hear, line of sight would be impaired, and they'd have less chance of seeing or hearing YOU on your motorcycle. Sure, there might be less percentage of head injuries, but I'm betting accidents would rise sharply, which, again, would increase the money going to hospitals for said injuries.

Wow.  So helmets restrict hearing and vision and that's OK on bikes but not in cars.  Interesting.

My fear is just that it won't end with helmet laws for bikes that's all.  We're not the majority so our voice isn't as loud as it should be at times IMO.

When we're the minority I worry that laws that place restrictions on our freedom to ride may be just the start of a slippery slope justified by the argument of cost which I frankly don't buy personally.  But YMMV

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Offline StevieMac

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2006, 12:40:38 PM »
If people want to bash their heads in, that's cool, I guess, long as I don't have to pay for their stupidity.

Oh I hear you loud and clear but we pay for societies idiots all the time.  Why should motorcyclists be any exception??
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2006, 12:45:58 PM »
I think  that helmets used on daily commutes in cars may acatually CAUSE more accidents. People cant hear, line of sight would be impaired, and they'd have less chance of seeing or hearing YOU on your motorcycle. Sure, there might be less percentage of head injuries, but I'm betting accidents would rise sharply, which, again, would increase the money going to hospitals for said injuries.

Wow.  So helmets restrict hearing and vision and that's OK on bikes but not in cars.  Interesting.

My fear is just that it won't end with helmet laws for bikes that's all.  We're not the majority so our voice isn't as loud as it should be at times IMO.

When we're the minority I worry that laws that place restrictions on our freedom to ride may be just the start of a slippery slope justified by the argument of cost which I frankly don't buy personally.  But YMMV


In a car, your ability to hear things is already reduced greatly, by things like, doors, roofs, windows, and sound deadening material. THe helmet would restrict ehri ability to see behind them, when all we need to do is turn our heads.

I'm not saying this is fact, but I sure as hell wouldnt wear a helmet in a car, i'd be running peopel over left and right if I were wearing one. Ever wear on for AutoX? It pretty much limits your vision to 90 degrees on either side of straight forward.
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Offline StevieMac

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2006, 01:05:57 PM »
In a car, your ability to hear things is already reduced greatly, by things like, doors, roofs, windows, and sound deadening material. THe helmet would restrict ehri ability to see behind them, when all we need to do is turn our heads.

I'm not saying this is fact, but I sure as hell wouldnt wear a helmet in a car, i'd be running peopel over left and right if I were wearing one. Ever wear on for AutoX? It pretty much limits your vision to 90 degrees on either side of straight forward.

Then we'll have to design special commuter car helmets then.   We have to keep in mind the tremendous cost savings to be had here  ;) I don't mind if they have to wear bicycle helmets that just sit on top of their heads.  They can even wear "BC Beanies" if they like  ;D

Then we'll get to those pedestrians and protect them from themselves too  ;)
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2006, 01:09:21 PM »
I'll design one right away. We can patent it, make millions, which we'll get to keep more of because of fewer injuries.
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Offline nickjtc

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Re: Possible change of helmet law in British Columbia
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2006, 01:22:01 PM »
......when all we need to do is turn our heads.

That's the number one reason why people fail their car and motorcycle tests hereabouts...no shoulder checks.
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