Author Topic: Help me understand jetting..  (Read 2003 times)

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Offline Dr. Noisewater

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Help me understand jetting..
« on: December 13, 2013, 03:35:12 PM »
I'm trying to get a better understanding on how intake/exhaust modifications effect the air/fuel mixture, and after spending the last hour or so searching through arguments over pods.. I figure I'll just ask my questions.

My bike is a 75 CB550F. From what I've read the early F models ran a bit leaner than the others, due to the 069a carbs and the 4-1 exhaust. I'll be changing the exhaust next weekend to a MAC 4-1 header with a cone engineering 12" straight through open muffler. Will the open muffler make it run leaner or richer? Is it really true that if I were to run a freer flowing intake with the open muffler that the two would cancel each other out as far as jetting is concerned? I'm running the factory airbox with a UNI foam filter, would the foam filter be considered freer flowing enough to be applied to that theory? I also read somewhere that when tuning in a higher elevation, which causes a slightly rich mixture, you can sometimes get away with making intake/exhaust changes without having to make jet corrections.

Is any of that true?

I'm right about 5,000 ft. in elevation and I'm trying to understand how all these factors will come into play. Thanks for your help.

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 04:26:45 PM »
It's more  involved that what I have experienced, but the cone mufflers I saw at Barber were all cool. Did you buy it or get the kit?

I think that the pod lowers pressure and you want larger jets to compensate for less vacuum on the gas coming in.

From what I understand some exhaust mods can be pretty forgiving.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 04:43:44 PM »
First, try breaking it down into several categories: although there is a little bit of interaction between the inlet tract and the exhaust, using the components you are speaking of, it's not much. If you had, for example, a wide duration cam or 11:1 compression on a stock cam, then they start to interact more, and make it more complicated.

The intake tract: don't think in terms of car carbs. Those are constant-vacuum devices: these are pulse-feed carbs. They act differently, by a stretch. At idle speeds, the suction pulse is very short, so it must also be quite rich or else there isn't enough fuel to burn. But, just off of idle (about 1250 RPM) this must change. At idle, the mix is about 12:1 A/F, at "throttle crack vacuum", or the beginning of low range control, it has to drop to 13:1 A/F or the engine will blubber and then lurch off as it cleans itself out. This transition is controlled by 2 things: first, the idle air screw setting and second, the float level. Always, always, start there, with the factory settings. Otherwise, it will either not idle, not return to idle, or will have a hard time getting up from idle. Most of our air screws' seats are widened a litte from the years, so consider turning them inward slightly (1/16 to 1/8 turn) over stock to compensate for this wear issue.

As soon as you reach 1500 RPM, you begin to enter the region of the cutaway on the slide of the carb. While you can't do a lot of changing with this part, if the float level is too low it will fall flat on its face here. The air screw still controls the mixture until 2500-ish RPM under normal riding, in gear. If the spark advancer is advancing too fast because the springs have become annealed (soft) from the heat cycling, this also makes them fall flat. Stiffening up the spring(s) helps, specifically, here.

As you approach 3000 RPM, the needle position in the slide starts to have more authority over the idle air screw. The air screw is 'out of the mix' by 3800-ish RPM on the oversquare bores like the 500/550. Now, you are running on the mixture set by the needle position, slide cutaway, float level, and the permissiveness (or not) of the air filter material. This remains the picture until you reach more than 1/2 throttle, or about 6500 RPM in gear with the 500/550. This is the dominant riding setting range.

Above 3/4 throttle, you are at the mercy of your inlet filter's breathing ability and the size of your main jet. At this point, the exhaust, if it is restrictive, starts to improve on the situation: if it is not, you are running right against the jet, so to speak. Backpressure at higher engine speeds causes less intake charge loss during the overlap time between exhaust-and-intake stroke TDC (aka 'overlap'), when the inertia of the incoming air-fuel mix actually pushes across the top of the piston for a short time, putting unburned gas into the exhaust as it fills the now-growing chamber while the intake stroke starts. If you have some backpressure, this helps slow down the speed over the top of the piston, which reduces the speed over the main jet in the carb throat, which in turn richens up the mix a little bit and lets the needle's position control things. If the air moves too fast here, it sucks the needle dry, and essentially "tops out" the mixture early. Then, increasing the mainjet, but dropping the needle so as to preserve the midrange throttle control, is the answer.

That last statement, I find, is where most folks go , "Huh?". So now might be a good moment to explain how these carbs actually work, if you don't have my book. First thing: engine vacuum does not suck the gas up the jets and into the engine, period. Instead, what happens is this (which you can verify with Bernouli's laws): the suction in the carb throat accelerates the air there via the narrowed venturi area where the slide lives. Note that at the back of the carb is a larger bell-shaped area where this air arrives: this air is at [nearly] atmospheric pressure. Inside the venturi, it is about 25% less pressure, because moving air is lower pressure than stationary air. So, those little ports you see at the mouth of the bell, which go down into the mainjet and idle jet mixing chambers, are being fed this high-pressure air, while the emulsifier chambers that sit atop the mainjet and idle jet have been exposed to the lower-pressure air in the venturi. This makes the air at the bell push its way down into the emulsifiers and up into the venturi, to try to balance the pressure. Meanwhile, there is a vent for the bowl that goes directly to the outside air: this is at even HIGHER pressure than the bell area, so the bowl is busy pushing fuel up those jets, to the mixing (emulsifier) chambers all the while. This is how these carbs mix air & fuel. The suction then just scoops up the little squirt that is laying, wet, on the floor of the carb at that point. In essence, each suction pulse of the engine gets the PREVIOUS suction pulse's gas. It's always one pulse late, which is called "throttle lag".

Now...in all this, note that the exhaust pipe backpressure plays very, very little into the game until it either disappears altogether (ths increasing overlap scavenge into the pipes, losing it from the cylinders), or becomes so much that the engine can't spit out the burned gases. In other words: from a full set of 4-4 pies to a straight-thru 4-1 header collector with drag shortie length, there is less than 3% possible change, with the stock cam. So, don't fret the exhaust pipe situation.

The intake is another story: the stock air box makes VERY still air, so it is at the highest possible pressure to enter the carbs. This presumes the whole tract is still there, and the paper air filter is not damaged by moisture, which plugs them up like they were a UNI filter. (K&N is the very best solution, hard to find for the 550, though). The UNI foam filters tend to lower the pressure at the bell of the carbs, because it is a restrictive filter if it is over-oiled, and it takes very little to over-oil them. Typically, I soak them in oil, then wash them out with soap and water, dry them, and THEN install them, just like that. This seems to at least let the top RPM come out of the bikes.

When you install pod filters, the air at the bell is moving in a dozen different directions, tumbling over the lip of the pod's mounting flange, and, when moving down the road, suffering from the shear angles of the air bouncing off your legs and tumbling over the top of the engine. This seriously disturbs the needed still air at the bell, hence the problems that ensue with mixing, with those filters.

So, all this said: for a given non-stock air inlet tract, there will be zones of too-rich and suddenly-leaner mixtures, interacting with each other. You physically can't fix that. What some have done is to simply make the whole range so rich that it doesn't duffer the fall-on-its-face transition when going from too-rich to normal (or lean) ranges, then they have to live with the sparkplug fouling problems. But, it runs. So, you will see folks recommending as high as #130 mainjets on the 750 or #120 on the 550, which is enough fuel to run a dragstrip with, IF you had a 60kV CDI to ignite it with: otherwise it will run, but will darken the plugs, soon. For casual rides, this may be OK. If you ride it to work every day, or try to tour with it, not so much. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline faux fiddy

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 04:51:49 PM »
A friend ground his own needles for his rz.  Does anyone ever do this for the Honda carbs?

Aren't  most needles somewhat generic for extracting average performance for stock use ?
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Offline Dr. Noisewater

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 09:03:51 PM »
Faux fiddy: I ordered the muffler direct from cone engineering. They have everything you could ever need to make an exhaust, and with better prices than most.

HondaMan: Wow.. thanks for being so thorough. I had to read it a few times to really grasp everything but I think I understand most of it. I guess I'll have to see how it runs to determine how it behaves throughout the RPM range, then refer back to this. Based on what you said though, I'm fairly certain my air filter is over oiled. I was told to fully saturate it in oil, squeeze out the excess, then install. I'll take it out and clear it out more. What kind of soap do you use, dish soap? My initial thought is that using soap would leave it too dry after, am I wrong?

But back to the exhaust, are you saying that I should be fine running factory jets with this intake/exhaust setup? Or did you say that the loss of backpressure from the open exhaust will cause it to run lean during the overlap in heavy acceleration? Maybe not lean, but just with less of the air/fuel mixture due to a portion of it being shuttled into the exhaust prematurely. And wouldn't that result in less power being made?

Offline fdbrat

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 09:57:33 PM »
If you can think up a question, odds are its already been asked. Use the search.

Ok I'll give you my experience with a cb550 I owned.

Stock bike. It was missing a lot of pieces.
I ran the uni foam pods 4-1 open pipe
Carbs were stock jets.
Afr screws were turned out 2 3/4

I avoided having to rejet my bike because I used the air filter oil spray on the foam uni pods. That's what they are meant for. I recommend you do the same if you run the foam uni pods.

That made the bike run richer.

When you introduce more air you need to add more fuel. More air / more fuel means you need to push it all out. Thus a freer flowing pipe.

Does your bike currently run?
Is everything stock?
How does it run?
Why do you want to change stuff?
Have you read up on doing a plug chop?

Also if everything is stock, and all you change is the pipe... then you should be ok?

But when you change the intake system you change everything.


From the factory bikes had to be made to run in many different types of environments.
Idle is usually set a bit on the lean side in stock form.
The needle is for mid range. It's usually set a bit lean too.
The main jets are set on the richer side.

Higher elevation gives you less air in a given volume as compared to sea level.
So just changing the pipe should be fine.
I'm all about learning new things.


Ask your self what you want. If you want a good daily driver leave it stock, maybe even change the pipe.
But if you want to dig in via trial and error And a lot of reading. Go for it.

Sorry I kinda rambled a bit more then I intended.



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Offline Bru-tom

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2013, 11:50:33 PM »
Thank you so so so so much Hondaman for that read!!!!!!!!! :)

Offline flatlander

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2013, 03:10:59 AM »
(K&N is the very best solution, hard to find for the 550, though).

do they exist?
i contacted k&n a while ago. they said they only made pods (which i don't want), no stock replacement filters for the 550f.
but if they can be found i'd love to hear it.

Offline Jayelwin

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2013, 07:12:15 AM »
This is a great thread.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2013, 07:28:50 PM »
(K&N is the very best solution, hard to find for the 550, though).

do they exist?
i contacted k&n a while ago. they said they only made pods (which i don't want), no stock replacement filters for the 550f.
but if they can be found i'd love to hear it.

One of our members came up with a great idea for the Mid-Fours: he modified the air plenum under the seat to accept a single K&N filter that had the same shape of hole in it (i.e., at the plenum box inlet). It's a big filter, like a car filter size, maybe for a small 4-cylinder Japanese car? Then he riveted together a sheet metal (I think it was from roof flashing aluminum, cheap and easy to get) box around the sides and bottom and back, so it breathes in the top, up under the seat. This is a good still-air spot to get your air from, for sure: it will provide nice, quiet air that the plenum box can then divide in much the same way as the OEM system.

My CB350F airbox is cracked in several places: if I can't do a nice job of fixing them, I will do much like this fellow did. I haven't been able to find his post, wish I had bookmarked it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline flatlander

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2013, 02:50:37 AM »
hmmm... sounds like a good idea but i guess it's buried in the depths of the forum, somewhere. just tried all sorts of searches, couldn't find it either. only this but it doesn't look like what you're talking about: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=108563.msg1216088#msg1216088

luckily my airbox is in good shape still so i can keep using the stock paper filters.

Offline brewsky

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2013, 04:35:12 AM »
I'll be changing the exhaust next weekend to a MAC 4-1 header with a cone engineering 12" straight through open muffler.
My experience is that with an open exhaust, you will end up with a narrow rpm range where it will run better, and the rest not as well.
 On my 750, simply removing the stock MAC 4/1 baffle gave approx 2 HP and 2# torque increase on the top end, but made it basically un-rideable in normal mid range riding....not to mention the headache level noise increase.
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Offline Dr. Noisewater

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2013, 08:10:30 AM »
Hmm thanks for the info brewsky, I'll have to keep that in mind when I change it over.

As for the airbox mod, I've been doing a lot of reading on that lately and imagine that'll be my next project after I get I working with the current setup, probably over next winter.

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2013, 12:28:39 PM »
when i first got my 550, the carbs were shot. the two little vents between 2 and 3 carbs were joined together. i see they are referred to as the float bowl vents that go directly to outside air. Now my question is, what sort of effect on carburation will they have if they are connected together not allowing them to vent to outside air?

thanks in advance ;)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2013, 12:34:03 PM »
when i first got my 550, the carbs were shot. the two little vents between 2 and 3 carbs were joined together. i see they are referred to as the float bowl vents that go directly to outside air. Now my question is, what sort of effect on carburation will they have if they are connected together not allowing them to vent to outside air?

thanks in advance ;)

Most of these have the 1-2 and the 3-4 bowl vents joined together, and the center two have little hoses from their vents that go up and over the top of the airbox to to the still-air area behind it. That way, all 4 bowls get relatively still air fed to them. The stiller, the better. ;)

The 750 early carbs (with 4 throttle cables) had 4 separate bowl vent hoses going up behind the airbox: this changed to joining them like the ones I described above, beginning around the diecast 750 era. Almost all the SOHC4 bikes came that way after that.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2013, 12:43:10 PM »
brilliant, thanks Mr. They are as you say, i connected the 1-2, 3-4 after my rebuild. But due to me finding them with the middle ones also connected, thats what i did. So with my ever irritating running conditions of my bike, i am trying to eliminate any single problem area i can find to help me narrow down the problem i am encountering ;)

Offline lucky

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Re: Help me understand jetting..
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2013, 10:45:39 AM »



The 750 early carbs (with 4 throttle cables) had 4 separate bowl vent hoses going up behind the airbox: this changed to joining them like the ones I described above, beginning around the diecast 750 era. Almost all the SOHC4 bikes came that way after that.
[/quote]

I keep saying that the 1969-70 carbs were the best and that is ONE MORE reason.