Topic: CB550 Charging/Battery Woes

[zeech]

It seems my charging system has gone awry after my recent rebuild and rewire. The bike runs great, but charging is the problem.

My battery shows good charge when the bike is off, 13.5v but as soon as I start the bike up, the voltage between the battery terminals goes haywire. It drops to almost nothing and bounces all over the place when revving the engine slightly.

I'm using a modern reg/rect combo which worked great before. My new wiring follows exactly what my old wiring was. Is the reg/rect shot or could it be something else?

I have a hot lead going from the battery to the red wire into the reg/rect, and the 3 yellow, 1 white and 1 green all go to the stator. The black from the reg/ rect goes to power and the coils. The reg/rect is isolated from the frame with a rubber washer.

[SamP]

During the disassembly, did you strike or drop the alternator stator or rotor (not sure which is magnetic)? That could demagnetize it, and without a magnet you'll be hard pressed to create a current. Assuming your wiring is correct, not sure what else it might be.

[TwoTired]

The rectifier needs a Red  AND Green wire connection to battery NEG, either through frame or direct.
You haven't told us what wires/colors your "modern" device has or where it came from.

Not all "modern combos" operate in the same way.


A full battery is measured AFTER charging and a two hour rest, unconnected.  It should read 12.6- 12.8 volts tops.
The 13.5v you measured is a surcharge just off the charger.  And, while a good sign, is not areliable indictor of good battery health.

You'll probably have to better define "all over the place".

The Cb550 alternator does not have a permanent magnet.   It has an electromagnet powered from the White and aGreen wire.  (Green wires follow a frame ground/battery NEG convention on these Hondas.)  The Battery NEG connection is as important as the POS wires.

[zeech]

Thanks Two Tired

It's a Rick's Motorsports unit, it has 3 yellow, 1 black, 1 red, 1 white, 1 green. It doesn't have an extra wire for NEG, but I realized I have it now isolated with a rubber washer where I never had that before the rebuild.

As far as "all over the place" 13, 0, 3, 5, 0, 10, 7 etc. literally bouncing over.

I will try and remove the isolator so I get the ground back that I lost.

[zeech]

Video of the bike running. No change with the isolator removed. The battery has also been off charger for more than 2 hours in this video. Battery is an Antigravity 8 Cell.

CB550 Charging Issue

[zeech]

I swapped out the alternator to another one and the behavior is now slightly different. After you let off the throttle from revving at least it settles at a higher voltage, but when revving it's still all over. Is this normal? (Looks like it is based off the end of this thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=125267.0)

CB Charging Issue 2

[zeech]

Also tried adding a frame ground to the green wire where the alternator meets the regulator and no change.

How can I test and see if there is current coming back from the alternator?

[TwoTired]

I looked at Rick's site, and couldn't find wiring documentation (or a schematic), apart from note that one was included with the unit.
So to me it's just a lump with wires attached to it.

3 phase rectifiers have 5 wires connected 3 yellows are AC from the alternator.  Then there must be a plus and minus connection to the battery.
The regulator section must drive the green and white of alternator based on what it senses from the battery storage level.

There are a number of ways (and colors) that can be chosen for the unit.  And Aftermarket vendors are not restricted to Honda color convention.  I don't know if "Rick's" cares about this, as I have no knowledge about their distributed documentation, and they aren't keen to inform on their site.

If the internal rectifier connections are separate from the Regulator section, you can run a wire from the batt POS directly to the White wire inputting to the alternator.  This should make the alternator put out full power all the time in relation to the RPM.  You'll have to be careful not to allow the battery voltage to climb too high when it is revved as YOU become the regulator.  But, this can tell you if the alternator is functioning.
If the unit internally connects the regulator to the rectifier outputs, it is possible that a jumper wire connected as described above will damage the regulator.

Such is the risk of dealing with unknowns.  Perhaps you should call Ricks motorsports for customer support.

[zeech]

My mistake, it's actually a Racetech Electric reg/rect — some tech info from their site: http://racetechelectric.com/ft-751-voltage-regulators.html

[zeech]

Another update, with the bike running I was measuring the voltage coming back from the yellow wires (AC) from the Stator and the readings were essentially .35 or so no mater what rpm is was revved at. Is this typical?

Can a rotor go bad from a crash etc thus not generating anything? I've been reading a bunch and am still trying to understand exactly how it all works. I know the reg sends DC to field coil which gives it something to then generate from, but I'm confused where the magnets actually are—in the stator, rotor?

I also learned the engine was a salvage from a front end crash. Engine runs amazing, but maybe this is the cause and the rotor is now bad?

[TwoTired]

The rotor on the cb550 is a lump of steel that is magnetized by the field coil.  The lump is divided/sloted so that it has alternating north and south poles.  When these poles pass the stator windings it generates changing lines of flux which induce a voltage in the stator windings alternating between positive and negative (alternating current).

If you are measuring stator voltage, set meter to measure AC volts, and measure between the yellow wires (these wires have no frame ground reference and should never connect to the frame or battery negative at any time).  However, imo, you should first measure the DC voltage being applied to the white and green of the field coil.  No voltage=no magnet=no stator voltage.  Yellow wire AC voltages range from 30-60V AC, depending a electromagnet strength.

As mentioned before, the rectifier changes the three phase ac voltage on the yellow wires to DC voltage for the battery's POS and NEG terminals.
The Rectifier output power varies with the RPM.  It usually makes about 50 Watts at idle and 150 Watts at 5000 RPM.  The output power curve is nonlinear, however.
If the bikes electrical load exceeds 50W, the battery will discharge at idle.  If the bikes electrical load is below 150W, the battery will recharge when the alternator is revved.

The vreg's job is to monitor the battery voltage and reduce the voltage fed to the white and green wires whenever the battery exceeds 14.5 - 14.7V as almost all motorcycle regulators that are commonly available are tailored to maintain Lead acid battery technology.   Reducing the field coil power, reduces the electromagnet strength, which reduces the alternator power output, thus keeping the battery from overcharging.

From the battery web site   http://antigravitybatteries.com/:
"You can ruin the battery if you let it drain to below 10.5v volts!!"

Has this occurred?

[zeech]

Thanks for all the detailed responses TwoTired. DC voltage from white/green looks like 65. Still nothing coming back from the yellow AC. I am just moving the two meter points across 2 of the 3 yellows to get the measurement right? Measuring the continuity of the yellow from the stator with the bike off shows all of them around 1.4 which is not the ~.45 that the manual says it should be, though it was reading correctly earlier today. Not sure what this means.

You know, that might have happened to the battery... I'm not sure. But the bigger problem is if it did, there must have been a charging failure for this to even occur in the first place. Hence why I am posting this thread and trying to narrow it down to what the problem could be.

It's hard to tell if the battery is gone. It will take a full charge and stay charged just fine until the bike is run, then because no charge is going back in, it eventually goes dead cause it can't run the systems by itself.

All I know is that it won't get recharged when the bike is running, and I can't seem to get a measurement on any AC voltage coming back from the stator which makes sense why it's not charging lol... Now I need a fix.

[TwoTired]

...DC voltage from white/green looks like 65.

Well, there's a waving red neon flag.   Where did that much DC voltage come from?  Its a 12 V system.  You should never see more than 15V DC anywhere on the bike.

Still nothing coming back from the yellow AC. I am just moving the two meter points across 2 of the 3 yellows to get the measurement right? Measuring the continuity of the yellow from the stator with the bike off shows all of them around 1.4 which is not the ~.45 that the manual says it should be, though it was reading correctly earlier today. Not sure what this means.

Until you get a reasonable/believable voltage on the white/green pair, it's sorta futile to measure the yellows.  When you measure the stator resistance, you must disconnect it from the circuit.  And as the numbers are so low, you have to factor in meter lead resistance.  Use lowest scale, touch the meter's probe tips together and note the reading.  You must subtract that number from any reading you make on the yellows, as that is test equipment error.

You know, that might have happened to the battery... I'm not sure. But the bigger problem is if it did, there must have been a charging failure for this to even occur in the first place. Hence why I am posting this thread and trying to narrow it down to what the problem could be.

Review the alternator power output at RPM vs bike load.  There can be nothing wrong with the charging system and the battery could still run down with too much idling or electrical loads that exceed alternator capacity.  (This is why I maintain that bikes converted to lithium battery technology should also be fitted with a voltmeter so the operator can save the battery from damage should a failure occur, or too much time is spent with the alternator at low RPMs.)

Got super coils?  Elect ignition?  High watts lighting, etc? 

It's hard to tell if the battery is gone. It will take a full charge and stay charged just fine until the bike is run, then because no charge is going back in, it eventually goes dead cause it can't run the systems by itself.

How long is eventually?  What are the specs on the battery?  Lithium batteries can lose the ability to deliver power or capacity after abusing them.  Voltage is only potential, not power, voltage with current, is power.

What kind of electrical loads do you have on the bike?

Have you measured the alternator field coil resistance?

[Deltarider]

Maybe you should try an analogue multimeter. Results with DMM's vary.

[brewsky]

Maybe you should try an analogue multimeter. Results with DMM's vary.

+1....or at least a different one.

Did you replace (or test) the wiring sub-harness between the alternator/field coil and the rectifer/regulator?

[zeech]

...DC voltage from white/green looks like 65.

Well, there's a waving red neon flag.   Where did that much DC voltage come from?  Its a 12 V system.  You should never see more than 15V DC anywhere on the bike.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong... will need to look again.

Still nothing coming back from the yellow AC. I am just moving the two meter points across 2 of the 3 yellows to get the measurement right? Measuring the continuity of the yellow from the stator with the bike off shows all of them around 1.4 which is not the ~.45 that the manual says it should be, though it was reading correctly earlier today. Not sure what this means.

Until you get a reasonable/believable voltage on the white/green pair, it's sorta futile to measure the yellows.  When you measure the stator resistance, you must disconnect it from the circuit.  And as the numbers are so low, you have to factor in meter lead resistance.  Use lowest scale, touch the meter's probe tips together and note the reading.  You must subtract that number from any reading you make on the yellows, as that is test equipment error.
[/quote]

Will do, I'm pretty sure the continuity is good.

You know, that might have happened to the battery... I'm not sure. But the bigger problem is if it did, there must have been a charging failure for this to even occur in the first place. Hence why I am posting this thread and trying to narrow it down to what the problem could be.

Review the alternator power output at RPM vs bike load.  There can be nothing wrong with the charging system and the battery could still run down with too much idling or electrical loads that exceed alternator capacity.  (This is why I maintain that bikes converted to lithium battery technology should also be fitted with a voltmeter so the operator can save the battery from damage should a failure occur, or too much time is spent with the alternator at low RPMs.)

Got super coils?  Elect ignition?  High watts lighting, etc? 
[/quote]

Dyna 5ohm coils. Stock points. 40w bulb.

It's hard to tell if the battery is gone. It will take a full charge and stay charged just fine until the bike is run, then because no charge is going back in, it eventually goes dead cause it can't run the systems by itself.

How long is eventually?  What are the specs on the battery?  Lithium batteries can lose the ability to deliver power or capacity after abusing them.  Voltage is only potential, not power, voltage with current, is power.

What kind of electrical loads do you have on the bike?

Have you measured the alternator field coil resistance?
[/quote]

Maybe an hour or so. 240 Cranking Amps / 9Ah (PB Eq). As far as loads go, only the headlight, led tail, coils, and signals when in use, no running lights, everything is stripped to be minimal. I will check the field coil.


A little more backstory. I had a great running bike but needed new rings, rebuilt the engine and had new problems. So I bought a used engine with 6k miles, put it in and it ran better than my old bike by 5 times, this was with my old stator because I had new wiring on it. Then I noticed that the bike would die. And now we know it's not charging.

[TwoTired]

Dyna 5ohm coils. Stock points. 40w bulb.

Quick estimate is then about 9 Amps loads with key switch and lighting on.

At idle, the alternator can put out around 5 amps.  Notice the deficit?

Maybe an hour or so. 240 Cranking Amps / 9Ah (PB Eq).

And now we know it's not charging.

No offense, but yet to be proven, from my observations.  Quite predictable it won't charge at idle or likely any RPMs below 2000-ish.

The seller's site is not saying what discharge rate to use when calculating capacity.  If total depletion is expected in 1 hr, then a 9 amp load ought to last about an hour and a half.  Starting batteries are usually rated at a ten hour rate,  a 12AH battery could sustain a 1.2A load for 10 Hours before reaching 10.5V.  At higher discharge rates, the capacity is reduced.  For example you'll get less than 5 hours at a 2.4 amp load and much less than 2.5 hours at a 4.8 amp load.  The sales driven antigravitybatteries.com is rich in bravado and scant on technical details that matter.
If we assume a PB equivalent 9AH and a ten hour rate, that means you are allowed to deplete your battery at a 0.9 amp rate over ten hours. While I don't know the derating curve to use at higher depletion rates, I can confidently project 1.8Amps for under 5 hours, 3.6 amps for under 2.5 hours, and 7.2 amps for well under 1.25 hours, before meeting the battery damaging voltage threshold of 10.5V.

You are aware that the starting motor draws 25-100 amps when engaged, right?  This does not figure into the steady state drain the bike needs just to maintain operation.
But, if we assume a 30 amp load on your antigravity battery, then you would expect to hit the 10.5 V damage threshold in about 5-15 minutes, depending on temperature conditions.

FYI:  The stock battery was sized at 12AH, in part, to meet laws stating that a disabled vehicle must maintain a rear lamp for 1 (or is it 3?) hours to warn drivers that the road shoulder is occupied.  This is particularly important at night where street lighting absent.

[zeech]

Quick estimate is then about 9 Amps loads with key switch and lighting on.

At idle, the alternator can put out around 5 amps.  Notice the deficit?

I do, but I've been running this setup for 2,500 miles and never had the issue till now with the new engine/wiring. Don't know what to say.

No offense, but yet to be proven, from my observations.  Quite predictable it won't charge at idle or likely any RPMs below 2000-ish.

None taken. Well, we do know there is no current coming back to the reg so we do know it's not charging technically, but we don't know what's causing it. My idle is around 2k.

The seller's site is not saying what discharge rate to use when calculating capacity.  If total depletion is expected in 1 hr, then a 9 amp load ought to last about an hour and a half.  Starting batteries are usually rated at a ten hour rate,  a 12AH battery could sustain a 1.2A load for 10 Hours before reaching 10.5V.  At higher discharge rates, the capacity is reduced.  For example you'll get less than 5 hours at a 2.4 amp load and much less than 2.5 hours at a 4.8 amp load.  The sales driven antigravitybatteries.com is rich in bravado and scant on technical details that matter.

If we assume a PB equivalent 9AH and a ten hour rate, that means you are allowed to deplete your battery at a 0.9 amp rate over ten hours. While I don't know the derating curve to use at higher depletion rates, I can confidently project 1.8Amps for under 5 hours, 3.6 amps for under 2.5 hours, and 7.2 amps for well under 1.25 hours, before meeting the battery damaging voltage threshold of 10.5V.

You are aware that the starting motor draws 25-100 amps when engaged, right?  This does not figure into the steady state drain the bike needs just to maintain operation.
But, if we assume a 30 amp load on your antigravity battery, then you would expect to hit the 10.5 V damage threshold in about 5-15 minutes, depending on temperature conditions.

FYI:  The stock battery was sized at 12AH, in part, to meet laws stating that a disabled vehicle must maintain a rear lamp for 1 (or is it 3?) hours to warn drivers that the road shoulder is occupied.  This is particularly important at night where street lighting absent.

Lots of data there about the battery drain etc. Not really sure if it's been damaged or not, I should probably get it tested? I'm going to hook up another good battery tonight which might tell me if the battery is the issue or not. It's just odd the battery reads good voltage until the bike is turned on, then it bounces all over like in the videos posted, instead of remaining constant and increasing with rpms. Perhaps the regulator is toast. Just trying ti figure it out but I know there are a lot of variables at hand.

Thanks a lot for the time you've taken so far to try and help me.

[TwoTired]

In the video, can't see where you have the meter leads attached, or discern what scale the meter's function knob is positioned.

The bouncing all over is often a sign of a loose connection, or improper ground reference.  (...or failed test equipment)  Trust me, it is quite frustrating, if not embarrassing, to troubleshoot a circuit for a long time based on an instrument's false report of facts.  I've seen test equipment go airborne!

[zeech]

The leads are on the battery pos/neg. It's on DC in the 20 range.

Hahah! I'll go buy one from Radioshack to compare with and will check my grounds etc. I think I could use a new ground cable...

[Maurice]

In the video, can't see where you have the meter leads attached, or discern what scale the meter's function knob is positioned.

The bouncing all over is often a sign of a loose connection, or improper ground reference.  (...or failed test equipment)  Trust me, it is quite frustrating, if not embarrassing, to troubleshoot a circuit for a long time based on an instrument's false report of facts.  I've seen test equipment go airborne!

Ditto, could be your voltmeter is toast or connections flaky. I had the same readings as you initially and thought either the regulator or the rectifier were going south, swapped regulator with a spare and same thing, come to find out the voltmeter to battery connections were just loose enough that the engine vibrations would cause goofy readings. Once clamped tight it read as it should: ~12v idle and 13.5v with some revs (no tach yet...).

Try a different meter, hold it in your hand, secure connections etc.

[zeech]

In the video, can't see where you have the meter leads attached, or discern what scale the meter's function knob is positioned.

The bouncing all over is often a sign of a loose connection, or improper ground reference.  (...or failed test equipment)  Trust me, it is quite frustrating, if not embarrassing, to troubleshoot a circuit for a long time based on an instrument's false report of facts.  I've seen test equipment go airborne!

Ditto, could be your voltmeter is toast or connections flaky. I had the same readings as you initially and thought either the regulator or the rectifier were going south, swapped regulator with a spare and same thing, come to find out the voltmeter to battery connections were just loose enough that the engine vibrations would cause goofy readings. Once clamped tight it read as it should: ~12v idle and 13.5v with some revs (no tach yet...).

Try a different meter, hold it in your hand, secure connections etc.

I would be willing to experience the embarrassment  for that to be the issue with the readings haha. Still need to determine why no voltage coming back from the stator. Hopefully a new meter will also give me accurate readings of the DC going into the field coil.

[TwoTired]

The battery's low impedance is supposed to add stability to the voltage on the bike.  If the battery post voltages are really wavering that rapidly, I don't think it bodes well for battery health.  But, I've never seen a Li tech battery fail in that way.  I've also no experience with the cylindrical types, though.

You could easily identify the pioneers at the old hoedowns.  They were the ones with arrows in their backs. 


Btw, idle in the video sounds way lower than 2000 RPM.  Sounds like maybe 1100, imo.

[zeech]

Yea I'll need to check again and see if I can get a better connection to the posts.

Haha!

It may be around 1,500 at low idle.

Anyway, thanks. Will report back.

[RaceTechElectric]

Hey guys & Zach, it's Evan from RaceTech Electric. Zach and I have been emailing regarding the Podcast I do with some other local shop guys, (www.motorbikemondays.com). He mentioned this forum post and the problems with charging on his CB.  Zach from what you describe, you have the regulator hooked up incorrectly. I emailed you a wiring diagram for our part to show it gets connected. I'll post the short version here:

Regulator wire color  |    Bike function

(3) yellows     |     (3) stator wires (white or yellow, I don't remember)
Red                |     Battery + (constant)
Green             |     Battery -  (or clean frame ground)
Black              |      Ignition switched +12V
White             |      Field coil +12V connection  (other side of field coil is internally grounded)

So from what you describe you had the Green wire (Battery -/ground) connected to a stator winding it sounds like.  Reconnect it per my instructions and I think you'll be ready to rock.

Evan