Topic: Re: 650 overbore/550 engine hybrid underway...final stages

[Soos]

ok...i had it set to 40 degrees instead of 35, due to the difference in true TDC i found when timing the cam. in any case, this is what the charts call for using curves 4 and 5, so i don't think that should have mattered a bit. i really think my rev limiter is malfunctioning. guys who have used the dyna 2000: what are the extra blue, white, and purple wires coming directly from the module for? i assume that's where the USB connection happens for programming the curves? anyway, i don't know what else could be going on. i'll call dyna when they're open.

The DYNA CurveMaker programming connector(that goes from your computer to the DYNA2000 itself) actually plugs into the 12 pin connector, NOT the BLUE, WHITE or PURPLE  wires.

You have to actually remove the DYNA2000 unit from the motorcycle harness to program it.

And regarding those 3 short wires poking out of the DYNA200 unit itself....

According to the  - "INSTRUCTION ADDENDUM FOR DD2K4C-P, DYNA 2000 - 4 cylinder programmable"

The 3 wires by the literature I received states:
"The BLUE or the WHITE wire can be used to turn on a Syna shift light, or activate a small relay. The ignition will ground the wire when the RPM reaches it's programmed values. See the curvemaker instructions for programming the RPM activated switches"

And mentioned elsewhere(same literature) :
"**IMPORTANT** - Wiring note - The BLUE and WHITE short wires (4 inch external) are for RPM activated switches. Either one can be programmed to turn on at any RPM and then turn off at any RPM. These two wires should not be connected to an ignition coil. The maximum current the switch can turn on is 2 AMPs. This is enough power for a Dyna Shift light, or a small Relay. This is not enough power to drive a large nitrous solenoid directly. Use a relay. See Programmable RPM Activated Switches for more information."

And regarding the purple wire the literature I have states:
"RETARD MODE USING EXTERNAL PURPLE WIRE
This mode is only for use with vehicles that require ignition retard under certian conditions, such as bikes equiped with nitrous oxide or a turbocharger. The purple wire acts as a retard activation line. To use this function, the purple wire must be connected to a switch or relay that can ground this input when ignition retard is desired.

In retard mode, when the purple wire is grounded, the ignition timing will follow the curve labeled RETARD on the CurveMaker screen. The traditional retard mode curves are included with the CurveMaker software, or you can develop your own. Rember that grounding the purple wire will select the curve labeled retard, so you must program your retard curve into the break points of the "RETARD" tab of the CurveMaker screen"


When I was contemplating purchasing the DYNA2000 unit DYNATEK tech support confirmed my suspicions that ALL dyna2000(with programming ability) are IDENTICAL for all 4 cylinder kits, regardless of what model year engine size. The only differences are the wiring harness, crank trigger, and timing plate.
I happen to be using a DYNA2000 unit built for a DOHC 750/900/1100.
Definately not a drop in for a 650, but i got it to work flawlessly.

But I do use the Curvemaker software, my rev limiter works great, as well as the programmed curves I use.
I based the custom curves I have on setting 3 and 4, with minor tweaks....

My camera is not able to download pics at the moment(new computer still setting a few things up), mabey later when i get it hooked up I will upload a pic of the harness that goes from the computer to the dyna2000 unit. Pretty simple really.

Hope this clarifies the 3 "mystery" wires for ya.

l8r

[Soos]

Another problem you may be encountering(I know I did) is timing of the cam VS the crank trigger.

Have you verified the TDC of the piston to make SURE the trigger lights up the DYNA2000 at the correct timing??
In my case it was roughly 20-30 degrees off.( I didn't measure, just kept widening the lots until i got the correct timing)
So after mounting the pickups on the 650 timing plate, I had to widen the timing adjustment slots to (just checked my bike and manual to be sure) ADVANCE the timing plate 20-30 degrees to attain the proper timing between the crank trigger, pickups and the TDC of the piston.



Possibly you are having a similar issue doe to using a 650 crank in a 550 motor??
Possibly just less difference in timing that I had encountered causing the problems you are encountering?

Did you verify this? I believe that i remember you posting you had done something with TDC and cam timing... but have you verified TDC with the timing of the DYNA2000?

Just a thought.



And a thought on jetting....
My 650 is bored out to 61mm giving 652cc's. Yours is at 64mm(right?) giving 718cc's.

From what I have read, the bigger the engine bore(thereby more air being sucked through the same carb bore size) you create more of a negative pressure, giving you the ability to pull more gas through the same size jets due to the higher negative pressure on the engine side of the carbs.

I happen to be running 107.5's jets(aftermarket, not keihin but I see no difference, but the motor might) and using 40 mains that came with the Keister rebuild kit.
At idle I have finally gotten it to run just slightly rich. (no need to overheat at red lights)
At 1/4 throttle, it's WAY rich(jet needles needs dropped, just been too busy), at 1/2 throttle a bit rich, 3/4 throttle just about perfect, and WOT is hard to check as the rev limiter sends the sensor a buddy of mine has reading WAAAAAAAY rich.
Without hitting the revlimiter, at about 8000rpm(under load) it reads absolutely perfect.

Since you and I are using pretty much the same carbs, mabey something in the range opf 105's might be a good selection for you?

I would really suggest finding some shop (or preferably a buddy, cheaper to do several tests using different sized jets) and testing for your air/fuel mixture.
I paid a shop 30.00 for 1/2 hour of time on their tester they have, and made friends with the mechanic, and have only paid a 6 pack of beer for each jet change/test since then....
But he has a very similar setup in his garage.
3 cases of beer later....... and a few burned knuckles later I have ended up with the jets I started with.
It's amazing what he has hooked up!! the rear wheel rides in the center of a car rim, and has a adjustable drum brake to simulate loads, so i can get to 3/4 throttle without topping out on the rev limiter. I'm really tempted to do a similar setup in my garage.
But thats another winter project thats way down the list at the moment.

And unfortunately, I don't remember what the clip position my jet needles are at.
I'm thinking it is at the 2nd from the bottom..... not too sure.(making it rich from 1/4-1/2 throttle)

Good luck!!


Don't forget.... i'm somewhat crazy, and could be wrong on the carb theories.....
There seems to be MANY theories on jetting, depending on who you talk to.


l8r

[Pinhead]

From what I've found, you can use a VOES switch connected to the retard wire to produce a steady-state cruise vacuum advance.  Not to hijack your thread, but has anyone experimented with vacuum advance with the Dyna2000?

[paulages]

Another problem you may be encountering(I know I did) is timing of the cam VS the crank trigger.

soos- i'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the 30 degree extra advance on your ignition. are you saying that your rotor reads that far off from TDC? when i degreed my cam, i scribed true TDC on the rotor, which was 5 degrees off from the dyna mark. that's what i'm going off of. TDC is TDC, whether you're timing the cam or ignition. 

pinhead- i don't even know what the hell you're talking about. why would you use vacuum advance with a unit utilizing programmed and programmable advance curves? actually, don't answer that. i'll gladly read it in another thread... this one is long enough as is.

[Pinhead]

pinhead- i don't even know what the hell you're talking about. why would you use vacuum advance with a unit utilizing programmed and programmable advance curves? actually, don't answer that. i'll gladly read it in another thread... this one is long enough as is.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=39926.0

[Soos]

Another problem you may be encountering(I know I did) is timing of the cam VS the crank trigger.

soos- i'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the 30 degree extra advance on your ignition. are you saying that your rotor reads that far off from TDC? when i degreed my cam, i scribed true TDC on the rotor, which was 5 degrees off from the dyna mark. that's what i'm going off of. TDC is TDC, whether you're timing the cam or ignition. 

The DOHC 750's location pin is at a different degree than the 650's is, and due to that difference, the magnet is at a different angle in relation to that locating dowel, forcing me to adjust by the degree of offset in either the timing plate, location of the pickups, or just widen the slots on the timing plate top adjust for this difference.


I could have(and still can i guess) re-drill the crank trigger to have the proper alignment on the crankshaft, or drill the holes in the 650's timing plate to have the pickups at the new "correct" position...

Slotting the timing plate was easier.(faster, and less machining time)

I plan on doing a better job on the next motor.
This bike is kinda of a testbed for ideas, as no one I have ever read of has ever gotten a dyna2000 to work on a non-hybrid 650 motor, my next motor(65mm 740cc's) will be more "picture perfect" and more of a drop in scenario with the next dyna2000 unit I install.

As i said the DYNA2000 i used was made for the DOHC 750/900/1100 bikes, and not even the dyna provided timing plate would work. It was the wrong OD, and the bolt pattern to mount it was different than the 650's. However the crank trigger dropped on(other than the locator pin on the wrong diameter bolt circle, and the pin at the wrong angular location to the magnetic trigger)... tempted to just make a custom crankshaft trigger for the next bike actually.



But having done what you did with scribing it in that way, you would have more than the 5 degrees it was off just in the adjustment in your timing plate.


Anyways..... If you think of getting the CurveMaker program, I think you will be happy with it, as you can set your curve to whatever you want.
IMO it's worth the 80 some odd bucks for it.

l8r
 

P.S. and YES this post has grown to be a monster..... Just like the bike you got there!

[paulages]

gotcha- i didn't catch that you used the DOHC package. why not the SOHC? all it took was a simple widening of the center hole in the rotor and the same for the locating pin hole. everything is 180 degrees off (1-4 TDC reads 2-3 TDC), but that's easily remedied when wiring the coils.

[Soos]

And the decision was based on info received from the DYNATEK technicians...
Diameter of timing plate(was close, thought i could weld/machine the OD to match, and the bore of the crankshaft trigger was the same as the OD of the crankshaft stud OD on the 650.)

But now knowing that the pin on the 550 package times correctly with the 650 crank, and all I would have needed to do is bore it out.... I will probably go with the 500/550 package next time.(probably still need to put the triggers on a 650 plate, or turn the OD to work)

That and I LOVE doing things that others have not dared to, or say is impossible...
The Dynatek tech. guys all said that a few people had tried to adapt other DYNA2000 packages to work on the cb650, and none had ever gotten it to work properly....
For me... that's just teasing me to try it!



l8r

[paulages]

well i must've had brent's luck (or curse?), because the rev limiter mysteriously stopped malfunctioning. for the sake of science i should mention that i did several other things at the same time, but nothing i would deem too significant. i removed the pickups and baseplate from the engine, disconnecting at the harness. i re-checked the plug wire connections at the coils to make sure i didn't have bad continuity, and i bead blasted the plugs clean. they were pretty fouled, but they should have been with all of the fuel i was dumping on them trying to get past 6000 RPM. i doubt that fouled plugs would start and idle fine, but suddenly have bad spark at a certain RPM. maybe separating the harness reset something?

anyway... WOW. it pulls like a freight train. couldn't even pretend like i could keep it in the low RPM range, but i tried to keep it away from redline.    jetting work to do, but man it feels good.

[bwaller]

Great news.  I bet it's pretty easy for you to smile right about now.

[paulages]

Great news.  I bet it's pretty easy for you to smile right about now.

it's not too hard. of course as luck would have it, it's looking like rain outside right now. WTF? when i signed up for this pacific northwest thing, the weather contract clearly said "no rain in the summer." i figured it's a fair enough trade to endure the other 9 months of piss. 

[pdxPope]

Sorry Charlie, we already HAD summer. It was Wednesday, didn't you see it? 

Glad to hear that the beastie is running better.

So what's the next project, the race bike?


-JP

[paulages]

Sorry Charlie, we already HAD summer. It was Wednesday, didn't you see it? 

Glad to hear that the beastie is running better.

So what's the next project, the race bike?


-JP

i have some other people's stuff to finish up, but i think my next real project will be a 350T. it was my first bike, and i love them. i've always wanted to trick one out.

[pdxPope]

Cafe', bobber or 100pt restoration?


-JP

[paulages]

Cafe', bobber or 100pt restoration?


-JP

probably race ready, street legal.

[pdxPope]

You gunna run it in the Vintage class or just terrorize the neighborhood? 

-JP

[paulages]

maybe both, JP? 

several threads running about this engine at the moment, but this one seems the most appropriate here. i changed the oil tonight and pulled the sump pan and filter for inspection. there is a little (expected) metallic sediment in both from break-in, but nothing alarming. almost seems like a shame to change oil that clean, but it's better safe than sorry. i think i have all the oil leaks dried up at this point.

i installed an oil pressure gauge tonight, but i don't think it'll cut the chase. it's a small unit intended to be installed in-line, and i think there's too much air trapped in the line to get a good reading. it reads 20-30 PSI above idle... i'm pretty sure (hope, anyway) that that's wrong. i'll pop on the pump from the race bike, just to be sure. it reads 70 PSI on its own gauge.

[paulages]

tonight i changed the plugs to D7EA for the first time... i started with D8EA plugs, thinking that the higher compression, etc. might want cooler plugs. i have always intended to try the D7EA for comparison (it is stock on the 550 and 650 after all), but plain forgot.

anyway, i did tonight and holy #$%* did it make a difference...  i lifted the front tire up in second and third whacking the throttle open like i usually do when i want to feel the seat go out from under me. it caught me really off guard. i felt like i could power wheelie in any gear if i wanted to. oh, and the clutch slipped under load in first for the first time.

it seems hard to believe that a simple plug change would net that much noticeable power, but maybe i was seriously crippling it with the D8s? the dyno will tell...

[cafe75-550]

Awesome work Paul!!!

Been forever since I've been over here, got caught up in my Triumph and a couple of cars now, my project has been stalled for awhile now. Glad to see the hybrid monster finally completed and kicking butt! 

[paulages]

i know this thread has been dead for a while, but i didn't know where else to post this... my friend and machinist Dan Hall passed away tuesday afternoon, and as he was integral to me making this project happen a eulogy here seems appropriate. he raced his nissan 200sx nationally up until 2007 (in his 70's), and was a master machinist and engine builder, with the type of knowledge that has passed away forever. he was a great man who lived his life by his terms, something i always strive to achieve.

may he race in peace.

[MRieck]

i know this thread has been dead for a while, but i didn't know where else to post this... my friend and machinist Dan Hall passed away tuesday afternoon, and as he was integral to me making this project happen a eulogy here seems appropriate. he raced his nissan 200sx nationally up until 2007 (in his 70's), and was a master machinist and engine builder, with the type of knowledge that has passed away forever. he was a great man who lived his life by his terms, something i always strive to achieve.

may he race in peace.

I'm very sorry to read this Paul. I wouldn't worry about his knowledge being passed away forever as I'm very sure you are walking around with a great deal of it in your head. The mark of a great man is not what he knows but how willing he is to share his knowledge.

[manjisann]

The mark of a great man is not what he knows but how willing he is to share his knowledge.

Amen.

Paulages, sorry to hear about your friend.

Brandon

[greasy j]

sorry to hear about your friend, that's too bad. it can really wrench you back to reality when someone dies. it's a good opportunity to take stock of all that you have and are, though. I always try to appreciate what i have gained whenever I lose something. or someone. hopefully his memory lives on in your bike and your experiences together building it. and the same is true of all the others he influenced.

things like this help me to never take anything for granted.

sorry, Paul.