Topic: Freeway groove wobble

[Dr. Noisewater]

Just curious if you guys have to deal with this too? I'm running Avon roadrider am26 tires and they grab those grooves like there's no tomorrow. Sometimes it's not too bad, just a slight wiggle. But sometimes I'll hit a stretch that has me squirreling all over the place, it has to be noticeable (and startling) to those behind me.

Do you guys go through this? Does it just depend on the tires? Anybody go down from those grooves?

This is my first time riding a bike on the freeway, and squirreling around at 80mph isn't the most fun.

[flybox1]

Tread on tires does matter, but those have a tread that shouldn't make going over those cracks any worse.
Swing arm bushings that are not worn, and upgraded tapered roller steering bearings are two major contributors to solid steering feel.  Please look into upgrading these.

Other considerations.... tires properly mounted/inflated, your rim is true, wheel bearings and bearing stack are good and correct, you have a fork brace or a front fender....I'm sure there are others.

[scunny]

+1 on the tyre inflation.

[Duanob]

+1 on the tyre inflation.

+100 on tire proper tyre pressure.

[750K]

What flybox said, I've never noticed any weird grabbing with am26's unless they're doing road work and have stripped of the top layer of the roads surface. Those are different groves altogether, even then the roadriders handle them fine.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Interesting.. I know my tire pressure is what Avon recommends, but I guess I could look into wheel bearings and steering stem bearings.

I thought the wheel was checked for trueness when the tires were installed, but maybe not. I'll jack up the front and spin the tire around to check it out. How can I tell if the steering stem bearings are bad?

The thing is I get zero wobble at 80mph on a "non-grooved" road, or even on smooth sections on the freeway. It only wobbles on the grooves, and I can predict how severe the wobble will be based on how squiggly the grooves are on the road up ahead.

On the same freeway, my honda accord drives straight while my wife's accord follows the grooves. Which is why I thought it was tire related.

I would think if bearings were bad I'd get wobble on all surfaces at high speed?

Thanks guys.

[LesterPiglet]

This happens if you chose wider than standard tyres as well.

[goldarrow]

Tapered bearings for the steering neck fix a lot of handling issues.  Look under the neck to see if there is newer washer or rubber seal.  If stock ball bearings, should see the rubber seal

[Dr. Noisewater]

You may be onto something Lester. I spent forever trying to figure out the correct size but when I got the front put on it looks pretty fat. I'll have to check the numbers on it when I get home. Anybody want to share the front tire size on their 550 for comparison?

[Dr. Noisewater]

And yes I have a front fender.

[flybox1]

Interesting.. I know my tire pressure is what Avon recommends, but I guess I could look into wheel bearings and steering stem bearings.  inflate it to what honda says

I thought the wheel was checked for trueness when the tires were installed, but maybe not. I'll jack up the front and spin the tire around to check it out. How can I tell if the steering stem bearings are bad?  jack up the front.  can you slowly turn side to side smoothly, or does it feel 'notched' in the center.  with bars centered, and front jacked up, does your tire want to fall equally to either side, or does it want to stay centered?

The thing is I get zero wobble at 80mph on a "non-grooved" road, or even on smooth sections on the freeway. It only wobbles on the grooves, and I can predict how severe the wobble will be based on how squiggly the grooves are on the road up ahead. If your steering bearings have never been changed, you are riding IN the bearing notch when on smooth pavement, and steering feels solid.  Grooved pavement makes you steer in and out of the bearing groove, amplifying the wobbly sensation

On the same freeway, my honda accord drives straight while my wife's accord follows the grooves. Which is why I thought it was tire related.
cant compare 4 tires vs 2

I would think if bearings were bad I'd get wobble on all surfaces at high speed?   Maybe, but certainly less if you are travelling in a straight line.  You'd need a road imperfection to amplify the issue, and sometimes this can be fatal.

Thanks guys.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Thanks, flybox. I had the tires filled to honda's recommendation but had a fair amount of wheel bounce around 30mph and people arguing that Hondas recommendation was based on antique tires of the 70's and didn't apply to modern tires. I pumped them up to avon's recommendation and it fixed the bounce.

I'll jack it up and do some diagnostics when I get home. I bought some all balls tapered bearings for a 350 project, but I may have to use them on the 550. I think the description says they fit most or all CB's from the 70's, but I'll have to make sure.

[Duke McDukiedook]

All my bikes and my cars have problems with longitudinal grooving on roads, particularly when they grind the #$%* out of the road to meet smoothness specs. It drives me apey when I have to oversteer just to keep from looking like a drunken idiot when I am more dry than a preacher's fart.

[PeWe]

Steering damper will reduce wobble too.
Both wheels track each other as they should? Chain adjusters wrong adjusted will make rear wheel to not track front wheel.
Correct amount of oil in fork?
Shocks OK and all bolts tightened?
Swing arm bolt tightened?

[TwoTired]

If bits of tire tread fit into roadway grooves, it's going to follow the groove until side forces allow it to climb out of the groove 'til it finds another groove.  With ribbed tires, or overinflated tires forcing higher tread crowning, this effect will be more pronounced.

What is your rim width, tire size, and what tire pressures are you using?

I remember when using ribbed tires, the grooves in the roadway and some steel bridges would pucker my butt, shattering my illusion of control, and worried I was heading for a tank slapper.  Then one day I just relaxed and let the bike wiggle.  The bike would still go where I wanted it on command or simple leaning.  So, I just ignored it and accepted it as another quirk for the bike's character.  Sort of like a boat on choppy water.

The effect IS worse with worn swing arm bushings.


This does assume you have the rear wheel properly aligned with the front.  Other wise the bike has to decide which wheel is following which groove.

[750K]

TT, roadriders are more of a modern asym tread pattern. Unlike the speed master Avon makes which is ribbed and more old school looking.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

My take: First snug down the steering head bearings and replace the swingarm bushings with some of the bronze varieties. Don't snug the steering head so much as to interefer with it turning. This is easy to do.

If the steering head is loose or feels notchy after slight tightening or it's still wandering then replace those too with the tapered kit. Neither of these are expensive but can be a little time consuming.

Just 2 more improvements that can be made to these OLD WORN bikes. Few bucks spent, can't hurt.

[mcswny]

some steel bridges would pucker my butt,

Hahhaha couldn't have described the feeling better myself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HondanutRider]

I think there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.  (Maybe should get out the popcorn now.)  TwoTired has the correct assessment in his posting, when he observes that relaxing and letting the bike do its thing to find its way, makes the ride more controllable and less stressful.  Any single track two-wheeled vehicle will exhibit this behavior - sometimes more, sometimes less - depending primarily on the tires.  Steering heads and swing arm bearings will likely make it worse but aren't the cause and would manifest themselves in other situations.

The thing with tires is that they are rotating and acting as gyroscopes to keep the motorcycle upright and stable.  With a grooved or grated road surface these gyroscopes get regularly knocked around, disturbing their gyroscopic forces.  The tread patterns will influence how much "knocking" they get.  But they still are rotating and acting as gyroscopes, so that they will immediately try to straighten onto their original path.  The problem is if you tense up and try to fight the "knocking" then the effect is amplified and the gyroscopic forces take longer to correct.  Besides which, your butt needn't feel so puckered.

[TwoTired]

TT, roadriders are more of a modern asym tread pattern. Unlike the speed master Avon makes which is ribbed and more old school looking.

I understand that.  But, they do have that wiggly groove, which might set up a harmonic groove engagement related to speed, particularly on new tires with a high tread crown and over inflation.

I don't know for certain this is THE problem or A problem.  Just something one might consider if they are bored.

I use Metzelers, these days, and haven't noticed the wiggling with road grooves.  Maybe it just doesn't get my attention anymore. 

Still think one needs to check front/rear tire alignment tracking.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Thanks for all the input guys!

To answer a few questions:
I rebuilt the forks last weekend with fresh springs, seals, and oil. I put in equal amounts of oil and haven't seen any leaks. The freeway wiggle was the same before and after the fork job.
All nuts and bolts are secure, I've checked everything a million times since completing the bike. The shocks look really good and seem to function well enough.

Like I said, I originally had the tire pressure at the recommended Honda level. 28psi? But had a fair amount of wheel bounce around 30mph. People on here told me Honda's recommendation was only intended for tires of the 70's and doesn't apply to modern tires, and I should do what the tire manufacturer suggests. I found this page and did mine 32 front, 36 rear. The 30mph bounce went away.

http://www.avonmoto.com/tech/tire-pressure-guidelines

My front tire is 100/90-19. My rear tire is 110/90v18. I did a lot of research before ordering and read this was the proper size for the 550, but the front ended up being wider than the Cheng Shin that it had. Did I order the wrong tire?

When I installed the rear wheel it seemed to me the only alignment method was by using those two adjusters on each side of the very end of the swingarm. I just set them so they were both at the same mark and the chain was properly tensioned.

Is there a better, or correct way to align the rear tire that I stupidly overlooked? It seemed rather primitive to me at the time, but saw no other way. I would research right now but the internet's down and I'm doing all this from my phone..

[Dr. Noisewater]

Thanks for all the input guys!

To answer a few questions:
I rebuilt the forks last weekend with fresh springs, seals, and oil. I put in equal amounts of oil and haven't seen any leaks. The freeway wiggle was the same before and after the fork job.
All nuts and bolts are secure, I've checked everything a million times since completing the bike. The shocks look really good and seem to function well enough.

Like I said, I originally had the tire pressure at the recommended Honda level. 28psi? But had a fair amount of wheel bounce around 30mph. People on here told me Honda's recommendation was only intended for tires of the 70's and doesn't apply to modern tires, and I should do what the tire manufacturer suggests. I found this page and did mine 32 front, 36 rear. The 30mph bounce went away.

http://www.avonmoto.com/tech/tire-pressure-guidelines

My front tire is 100/90-19. My rear tire is 110/90v18. I did a lot of research before ordering and read this was the proper size for the 550, but the front ended up being wider than the Cheng Shin that it had. Did I order the wrong tire?

When I installed the rear wheel it seemed to me the only alignment method was by using those two adjusters on each side of the very end of the swingarm. I just set them so they were both at the same mark and the chain was properly tensioned.

Is there a better, or correct way to align the rear tire that I stupidly overlooked? It seemed rather primitive to me at the time, but saw no other way. I would research right now but the internet's down and I'm doing all this from my phone..

[Popwood]

I recall my first encounter with freeway "rain grooves" in Los Angeles years ago. I was a relatively new rider then and it scared the crap out of me. Thought the front wheel was about to fall off. And it was a new bike (Honda 400 Hawk). Now I live in Cincinnati and the same thing happens crossing our local steel deck "singing bridge." Like the freeway grooves lots of holes in the steel deck. Isn't this mostly a matter of significantly less tire in contact with the road surface and the tire wanting to "wander" a bit, finding it's way? It's never been a real control issue but first encounters sure feel  like it.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

You've been given great information from tires to suspension. No one here can say with any certainty what YOUR problem is but we have provided possible clues for your consideration. Pick one thing at a time from your list then move on. Seems to me you have the tires covered.

New thought: wheel bearings are always possible but I'd put them lastly on the accumulating list. They CAN wear out but seldom seem to do so.   

[goldarrow]

I use the same tires size as yours, on all my 550s and 750s, that that mean anything