Author Topic: Help a Newbie  (Read 3250 times)

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Offline rsank

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Re: Help a Newbie
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2014, 11:45:19 AM »
Thank you so much! The main fuse can be taken out by hand, it is tight but not tight enough to need a tool to pry it out. I will use the voltage drop measurement trick on the fuse clips themselves to see if they are the culprits. Maybe I will replace the fuse box and then move to cleaning switches and installing that series resistor.

Please help me make sense of one more thing. In my first test, I saw the voltage across the battery rise over 15v when engine rpm was 4000. By running the calculations above, I thought we should be always in deficit regardless of engine RPM, i.e., the battery voltage should always be draining and show less than its open circuit voltage?

Has the previous owner done something to bypass the regulator entirely? He put 30amp fuses in thr fuse box so I can't discount anything now.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help a Newbie
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2014, 01:06:23 PM »
The Vreg is supposed to back off the alternator output when the battery voltage reaches 14.5 V.  But, the Vreg sees (1.85 + .14) = 1.99 volts less that what battery voltage really is.  You read 15.5V minus the 2 V distribution loss = 13.5V at the Vreg, so the vreg thinks that battery needs full alternator power even when it is, in fact, fully charged.  The Vreg will try to charge the battery until it senses near 14.5V on it's sense inputs.  At about 15V applied and fully charged, the battery switches from chemical conversion (charging) to electrolysis of its electrolyte, dismantling the Hydrogen and the Oxygen from the H2SO4 electrolyte solution (it looks like boiling).

Also the 150 Watt alternator spec is a minimum spec.  No two alternators are exactly alike.  As humans cannot make perfect devices, some can make more power others.  Perhaps your is more capable than minimum under good conditions.   In this circumstance it was actually getting 13.5V on its alternator field, allowing it to  effectively go into battery overcharge runaway.  And, would continue to do so as long as the RPMs were kept high.  After electric start and idle operation the battery voltage will come down lower and lower.  You could probably drive your bike a good long while, if you kept the RPM high, started out with a fully charged battery.  But, once the battery gets into deficit conditions, it will have a hard time recovering on its own and spiral downwards.  The stock bike needs about a 6 to 1 ratio of over 2500 RPM to idle rpm operation to keep the battery topped up.  With your power distribution lying to the Vreg, it simply can't do it's proper job, and tweaking the vreg to attempt compensation is exactly the wrong thing to do.  I'd bet once you correct the V loss, your headlight will be brighter and blinkers work better, too.

There isn't much about the electrical system that is static.  There are multiple conditions and variations while it is operating.  Because the voltage does vary with battery charge level, the power draw varies with the voltage.  According to ohm's law, a constant resistance draws current in relation to the voltage provided. I = E/R.
Your voltage runaway observation was a corner case scenario.  You've already encountered the down side of of the battery charge issue.  But, the stock bike wasn't made to sit idle and/or hold idle RPM for far more time than above 2500.

30 amp fuses.
He put 30 amp fuses in the bike because he kept melting (not blowing) the main fuse, likely exacerbated by the 3 ohm coils.   30 amp fuses take more heat to part their element.  Normally you can hold your thumb on the proper 15A fuse and feel it be warm.  When the fuse clips get oxidized and you raise the current passing through it nearer to its melt point, you'll get blisters on your thumb.  You can melt fuses with a blow torch or soldering iron too, no current required at all. 

If you want to know how fuses do their job, I can explain that, too.  But, I think you have enough to do now correcting the V loss issue.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline rsank

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Re: Help a Newbie
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2014, 05:52:07 PM »
Thanks so much for your help. It really has been amazing to have somebody on the internet take so much care and give so much of their knowledge. Hats off to you!

I will work on the V loss issue and once that is done, I'll put in the series resistor to the coils. And yes, I did notice the headlamp and blinkers are not too bright.

Offline rsank

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Re: Help a Newbie
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2014, 10:01:50 PM »
Mr. TwoTired, Sir! You are amazing.

I worked some more on the bike. Really went at the fuse box clips (which I am going to replace anyway) and sanded every clip well. The voltage between Regulator Black Wire and Battery POS is now 0.5V!!
The headlight and running lamps are bright! Even my daughter commented on how much brighter it is now. I also sanded all the terminals of the Vreg. Now I'll tackle the ignition cylinder.

I think by the end of all this, I will be owing you quite a few rounds of drinks at the minimum.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 10:09:29 PM by rsank »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help a Newbie
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2014, 09:08:01 AM »
That's good news!

0.5V is about my limit for distribution degradation, and the whole bike should be better for that improvement.  The V drop was less than that when new though, 0.1 or 0.2V when all the connections/contacts were clean and bright.

I still recommend you find the RPM "break point" where the alternator takes over the electrical load from the battery.  That way, while riding you can have confidence the battery won't go flat and leave you stranded.

FYI: if you do find yourself with a low battery, you can pull the headlight fuse to remove it's load, and improve battery charging while driving home.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline rsank

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Re: Help a Newbie
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2014, 11:40:49 AM »
Thanks! With the bike stationary, I found around 3500 rpm to be the break point. I did a 20 mile ride yesterday and keeping rpms around 4000 on average, with no warm up and shut down idling, the battery did not deplete. Thanks for the tip of pulling the headlamp fuse. I am going to install a voltmeter as well so I can keep a closer eye on the battery.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help a Newbie
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2014, 12:29:46 PM »
I'd still go for the 1 to 1.5 ohm resistors for the coils, were it me.

FYI, the older cars with point ignition nearly always had a ballast resistor for the coil which it ran on except for start up.  It was bypassed only when the starter motor was engaged.  The 12 V systems used "6V" coils.  The inline ballast resistor was used to keep the coil from overheating, and 12V simply wasn't needed while the generator was operating.

The 3 ohm coils are essentially "6 V" coils.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline rsank

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Re: Help a Newbie
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2014, 12:35:07 PM »
Yes, the resistor installation is the next on my list.