Topic: Can't set cylinders 2-3 timing to save my life

[jorwesflow]

1977 CB550 K

I'm using this handy guide to set my timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/Static_and_Strobe_Timing.pdf

I'm starting with static and I've used both a 12v bulb and then tried an ohmmeter. I set the gaps to higher side of spec, but still within limits, and then set the static timing on 1-4 perfectly.

Then I moved on to 2-3 thinking it would be just as easy. not the case. the light just stays on the whole time through an entire crank cycle, and the ohmmeter reads infinite as well for the entire cycle. Never turns off. I've tried moving the 2-3 plate to several different positions, resetting the gap and going through again. The light just stays on, and ohmmeter reads infinite.

What the H is going on? 

[flybox1]

here are two possible issues.
Points Brand - Daichi, TEC, or ND?  Daichi points are notoriously difficult to time.  Many here only use ND or TEC
Points plate play - if you loosen the three plate mount screws, does your plate have play up and down, side to side?  If so, you might have to shim it in place.

Many threads on both topics here....

[jorwesflow]

here are two possible issues.
Points Brand - Daichi, TEC, or ND?  Daichi points are notoriously difficult to time.  Many here only use ND or TEC

TEC

Points plate play - if you loosen the three plate mount screws, does your plate have play up and down, side to side?  If so, you might have to shim it in place.

I've read other threads about the free play and shimming, but mine has no free play at all.

Many threads on both topics here....

I've read many of them, but haven't seen one that addresses why the timing light would stay on like mine is.

[seanbarney41]

Try double, triple checking the little screw on leads for the points.  Make sure they are properly insulated with fiber washers in the correct places, make sure leads are not inadverdently grounding against the points plate or other metal, make sure the insulation is not worn through anywhere. 
     If nothing is found wrong try swapping condenser with 1-4.  If the problem moves to 1-4, you need a new condensor

[DaveBarbier]

I've read other threads about the free play and shimming, but mine has no free play at all.

'Twas a little hard getting my 2-3 timing set on my 78 550 this summer. I didn't notice any visible play in the plate but I was still able to get a .005" shim in there and that helped.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[BobbyR]

You must also be very precise on setting the point gap. Using a timing light you can see haw you can tweak the timing by altering the gap.

[jorwesflow]

'Twas a little hard getting my 2-3 timing set on my 78 550 this summer. I didn't notice any visible play in the plate but I was still able to get a .005" shim in there and that helped.

Where exactly does that shim go? I'm sure I could squeeze one in. I'm not sure I'm understanding the physics behind why this even works... feel free to link me back to another thread. I'm bein lazy right now.

[jorwesflow]

You must also be very precise on setting the point gap. Using a timing light you can see haw you can tweak the timing by altering the gap.

I think I'm being precise, but all the documentation (Clymer, Shop Manual, Owner's Manual) don't really specify when exactly to take the measurement, they all say "when the points gap is at its furthest" or whatever. Seems a little subjective. It would be nice to line something up with the notch, much like the T and F marks.

[Vinhead1957]

Your wire to the point set is shorted to the base. Check the connection at the points to be sure it is insulated from the base. 0 ohms when points are open

[Spanner 1]

Vinhead +1..... also the max. 'lift' on the points cam is 90 deg. past the 'F' mark. So set the points gap to 14 thou. 90 deg. past the relevant F mark ( 1 and 4 ) and ( 2 and 3 ).... Good luck !

[Spanner 1]

Corrected to 90 deg  ... oops!

[Bodi]

Where are you connecting the light? Across the points? That means the points aren't closing if the light stays on. Connected between the points wire and +12V it would mean they aren't opening. The reference to infinite ohms suggests across the points. Look for some crud between the contacts if so. It doesn't take much to keep them from electrically closing although they are clearly mechanically closing.

[DaveBarbier]

Where exactly does that shim go? I'm sure I could squeeze one in. I'm not sure I'm understanding the physics behind why this even works... feel free to link me back to another thread. I'm bein lazy right now.

Hope you can see in this picture.

There's really nothing to it. If the points plate can wiggle around the timing cam then the point gap and timing will change.

The process is to shim the plate, set gap then set timing, either statically or with the engine running. Then remove the shim (obviously after you tighten the plate and points screws).

Two things to note: some people throw away those perpetually stripped Phillips plate screws and replace them with stainless Allen screws. Also, I hear it's more important that the advance is set accurately than the idle since the advance comes on around 2500-3000 rpm and almost all the time you're above that while riding. 


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1978 Honda CB550K

[jorwesflow]

Where are you connecting the light? Across the points?

I'm connecting one lead to the case and another to the exposed yellow wire. That's correct, right? Does everything else look okay on this?



Also, I swapped the condensers and the problem remains on 2-3 with the light staying on 360 degrees.

I also notice that as I rotate through, I see/hear the 1-4 points spark, but don't see/hear a spark at all from the 2-3 points. I've cleaned the 2-3 points with a piece of cardstock, but haven't tried a file. not sure what kind of file to use.

And here are the washers and stuff from 2-3. they look fine. I don't think it's shorting to the base.

[jorwesflow]

I might also add that prior to getting into this project, the bike was idling absolutely horrifically.

[scottly]

Where are you connecting the light? Across the points? That means the points aren't closing if the light stays on.

1+

[Keith]

I would suspect those two washers. The washers must insulate the bolt where it passes through the points....there's no way those washers can prevent the bolt from contacting the point assembly unless everything is centered perfectly. If the bolt can make contact with any metal part of the points, you won't get a dwell reading.

[Spanner 1]

Dirty point faces will make your test lamp stay on, even if the points are closing they may not be passing current to ground = no spark.

[PeWe]

Bent stud wobbling the rotor?

[Bodi]

The way the light is connected, staying on means the points are not closing. There's no short to ground to look for: that would turn your light off. The other side of the points is definitely grounded - it's screwed down to the plate - so either the point plate is adjusted so that the contacts never touch, or there's dirt between the contacts... or somehow the spring is not connecting to the moving points arm.

[DaveBarbier]

It also looks like you're buried up as far as adjustment goes on the 2-3. I'd start over and center the notch between the dimples then set the gap. Not sure if that would make a difference, maybe someone with more knowledge can comment on that.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[BobbyR]

I know it may not be easy, but you should look into getting a electric timing light. I am not sure if places like Autozone or other places lend them out. If you look around they show up in Estate sales etc. It tells you when the electric pulse happen rather than when it should fire. The bulb method is very old school.

[jorwesflow]

I know it may not be easy, but you should look into getting a electric timing light. I am not sure if places like Autozone or other places lend them out. If you look around they show up in Estate sales etc. It tells you when the electric pulse happen rather than when it should fire. The bulb method is very old school.

Definitely. My intention was to get in the ballpark with the static method, then go with a strobe timing gun to dial it in even further and check the advance and all that. But I'm thinking my 2-3 points are too dirty or pitted and need to be replaced. I think they are, as Bodi and Spanner1 said earlier, mechanically closing but don't seem to be electrically closing. I'll have time to check deeper this week. I'll try to clean with fine sand paper again, but I hear that the points are plated with tungsten and sanding them can make things worse?

Any suggestions of what points to buy as replacements, if that's what I need?

[BobbyR]

I know it may not be easy, but you should look into getting a electric timing light. I am not sure if places like Autozone or other places lend them out. If you look around they show up in Estate sales etc. It tells you when the electric pulse happen rather than when it should fire. The bulb method is very old school.

Definitely. My intention was to get in the ballpark with the static method, then go with a strobe timing gun to dial it in even further and check the advance and all that. But I'm thinking my 2-3 points are too dirty or pitted and need to be replaced. I think they are, as Bodi and Spanner1 said earlier, mechanically closing but don't seem to be electrically closing. I'll have time to check deeper this week. I'll try to clean with fine sand paper again, but I hear that the points are plated with tungsten and sanding them can make things worse?

Any suggestions of what points to buy as replacements, if that's what I need?

I believe that Denso are the points of choice. It is very hard to restore a set of points that are pitted. My old man was a cheapskate child of the depression, and would do that. He was a toolmaker and he finally stopped.

I mean this with all good will. you have been messing with this for a while now and it would hardly seem worth the time and effort given the potential final result. If you consider it a challenge, like a puzzle that is cool.

[jorwesflow]

Just got back from a long ride. She's purrrrrrring.
Turns out those 2-3 points were just dirty and/or a bit corroded like several of y'all said. I lightly sanded them with some 1500 grit sandpaper, then sprayed with some electric parts cleaner. Regapped and they were dead on time. Still need to check the advance, but running better than ever!

Side note, I was having issues for months with white gassy smoke coming from exhaust and the breather. My oil had become all contaminated with gas as well. I'm guessing that had something to do with the timing/points being messy, unburned gas getting all up in there. So fresh oil, clean points, accurate timing seems to have fixed that.

'Twas a good day today. Thanks all for the help!