Author Topic: Headers/engine running hot  (Read 4160 times)

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Offline SamP

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Headers/engine running hot
« on: June 21, 2015, 08:00:55 PM »
Bike in question: 77 cb550k, pd46 carbs, foam air filter, 4into1 mac exhaust, 45 pilot (previously 42), 90 main, mixture at 2.5 turns out.

So I have been riding my 550 around town this summer and it has, for the most part, been running smoothly. After her first ride two up one night, I suspected I had overheated the engine. No seized pistons, but definitely had some white smoke coming off the bike when we stopped 15 minutes later. Let her cool down, rode home an hour later and had trouble not stalling out (turned out to be a dropped pilot jet, I think).
Fast forward - changed the oil to 20w50, I removed the carbs, did a deep clean, soaked in pine sol for an hour, ran a guitar string through all the ports, dried and clean, reinstalled, tightened everything, and bumped my pilot jets up a size (was running 42s, now running 45s, still have 90 main). I suspected lean because the engine was so hot: headers just beyond the exhaust flange brackets were running between 450 and 500 F. Plus there was tons of coughing through the carb body and hesitation when cracking the throttle. Bigger pilot jets and no more coughing or hesitation. However, the headers at the exhaust bracket is still running around 450 F at idle. Have not synced yet or pulled plugs to look at them yet, will do so after syncing and riding a bit. But I'm concerned about riding if the headers are still running upwards of 450. The only other post I found listed temps in the 300F range for headers, if not lower. I don't wanna cook my oil again, or burn a hole in my piston, so I'm reluctant to ride again until I think I'm in a safer temp zone.
Other factors to consider 1) I tried running the bike with the mixture screws turned in all the way across all four, and then turned 3 turns out just to see what difference it would make. I thought that turning them in all the way would lean out the mixture enough to prevent it from starting, but it still ran. Only difference was an increase of idle RPMs by 100. Not sure if this is to be expected or not, but it makes me feel like the mixture screw is mostly for decoration. Am I crazy or does this screw actually do something and I am just not experienced enough to notice?
2) oil change was first one after splitting the cases and installing a new primary chain, cam chain, a few bearings, and new rings. There was some metal in the bottom of the oil pan, which I know was to be expected, and one small piece, probably about 1/4 inch long, about the size and shape of a small, torn fingernail clipping. Very small in absolute terms, but potentially huge in tolerance terms.

Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2015, 08:14:04 PM »
Please check your oil....need to be low in detergents and friction modifiers. Add ZDDP.
Please no longer use pinesol as as carb soak.   
It's acidic, and will slowly dissolve your carbs.  Now you know why it makes them look so good.
90mains seems a little low.  Could you be running really lean above 2/3 throttle, increasing your temps?
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2015, 10:05:20 PM »
I just installed 20w50 conventional. Will add ZDDP before syncing.
Not planning on soaking again, but if it has to happen will look up other product like gunk or berrymans.
Mains are 90s because I had major carbon fouling with 100s and engine stalling when pulling the clutch and letting off the throttle from WOT under load. Slide needle clip is in the third position (center). Header temps are registering in the upper 400s while revving in neutral to 4000rpm. When letting off the throttle in neutral and letting it run, header temps are still in excess of 400.

Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 07:27:48 AM »
Ahhh, come on calj, take a stab at it  ;D
I'm curious why the #45 pilots?  Did gas analysis indicate it was needed?  What about a 1/4 throttle plug chop? 
Or was it the always accurate butt-dyno?   :P
Did you in fact have a pilot drop out while you were riding? 
Its happened to me...within seconds it went from running strong to 'worse than the day i brought it home'  ::)
I have a box fan in the garage just for keeping temps down.  Any longer than 3-4 minutes and the fan gets turned on.

'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 08:53:48 AM »
Pilot was in bowl #2 when I detached them to let them dry before cleaning. Ironically, that was the only header that had a temp of 160 when I checked it with the gun. Once the bowls were off I figured that was why, and why it wouldn't idle (throttle blips on the way home on that last ride)
My diagnosis comes from the temps reading as high as they are, plus the overheating, smoky bike after 15 minutes with 2 up. May have been some knocking but I really am not sure about that (running 87 ethanol free). I've mentioned this in previous threads, but I used the formula for jetting where I arrived at 100 mains and 45 idles. Installed those and had four dry, black, sooty spark plugs, and engine stalls when pulling in the clutch and releasing throttle from WOT. The forum advised that I switch back to the stock jetting and the stalling out and carbon fouling stopped.
What did start was an absurd amount of spitting and coughing back up through the carbs. I could mitigate it somewhat by fiddling with the timing, but could never completely eliminate it. It also hesitated horribly when cracking the throttle. This could be alleviated with timing plate positioning, at the expense of more coughing.
I ran the engine for ~3 or 4 minutes with the larger pilots and any trace of coughing or hesitation at cracking the throttle disappeared. However, in those 3-4 minutes the temps on the headers just after the brackets were still 400ish. And yes, for future reference, I am not letting the engine sit still while idling for more than your average warm up period. Any longer than 5 minutes and I've got a fan going.
Plug chop looks on the lean side as well, which sort of confirmed my suspicions. All very white or light grey (except 4, which was never fully cleaned before reinstall), with some white, flaky deposits.
Still looking for input on the mixture screws - Not sure what they're doing, if anything.

Plug pics from when I had 42 pilots - #4 looks fine in comparison.


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Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 09:36:46 AM »
Thanks for the detail.  great pictures.  Still really lean there. (= higher temps)
BTW,  u can put all in a row and take one picture  ;)
Out of all of those, your #2 is the one starting to show proper color.  (dry, even deposits)

Please list the parameters for the above plug chop. 45/90 jets and 2.5 turns still?
(what throttle position? NEW unused plugs? how long did u run the test? etc...)
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 10:10:42 AM »
Id say no on the colder plug. Stick with D7EA's...here's why
Because of the jet overlap in any given throttle position, Sam needs to concentrate on getting  WOT Main jet mixture perfect. First.
If you work on pilot jet or mixture screw settings first, you cant make carb adjustments for needle pos and mains without messing everything else up.

For example, lets say you have your pilot/mixture screw circuit perfect....nice tan plugs, but you are still lean at WOT....well, an increase of main jet size will and does INCREASE fuel levels at every throttle position below WOT.
You've just fooked up your perfect idle/pilot mixture by going richer on the mains. ::) 
So Sam, do a vacuum sync with your current settings, and go do a WOT chop first.  Get your main jets (90/92/95/100) right first, before you move on.

2/3 throttle position chop is next, for needle clip location. lowering the needle clip a slot(towards the sharp end) makes it richer.  raising it makes it leaner. get it right before you move on.

Next, 1/4 throttle position for pilot jet size.  Get it right before you move on.

Idle chop for your mixture screw.  Set all screws to factory setting +1/2 turn(IIWM), and do another vacuum sync while you are letting deposits form on your plugs.  You should be running really well about now, and able to dial in vacuum near perfect.
As you tune this circuit, treat each carb separately.  They can and will all have slightly different screw settings.
 
Yes, it'll take a box of plugs, or 1-2 sets and a soda blaster, and a lot of fun runs, but once its done, your bike will pull like it should...and right up into the red.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 10:19:47 AM »
These plugs were from ~100 miles and a few months worth of syncing and riding under various conditions, except no highway. Jetting was 42 and 90, mix screws at 2 full turns out.
Have not done a plug chop with the bigger pilots. Haven't done any more than idle for 5 minutes to check the temps on the headers and listen for coughing, pings, etc. Sounded much better, but temps still has me concerned. Any new tests I run will be on new plugs.
Can't get and kddp locally, will need to order it. Anything I found here doesn't work with wet clutches.
Duly noted on the single plug pic. I do one at a time for more detail and because I'll forget where they go if I don't reinstall in the correct cylinder immediately (for consistency's sake).


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Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 10:33:24 AM »
grab an egg carton or piece of cardboard. Punch a hole (for the plug tip) in it with a big red # over it. Shove the tip in, plug upside down. Works a treat for forgetful types...
An elegant, yet practical solution for a issue I hadn't even considered a problem. I suppose I'm focusing too much of my (limited) cognitive resources at carburetors .

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Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 10:36:24 AM »
The egg carton is a nice hack calj  ;D
Yes, he's super lean at idle but i suspect his mains and clip pos are really lean too. 
Getting these right, first, will add fuel to idle-1/4 mixture. a small amount, but it will. 
IIWM, id throw in 95/98's and WOT chop from there (assuming his 100's were really too rich and not fouled from starts/idle, etc.)
Did HONDA jet for sea-level humidity?  Good question, but i doubt it.  :-\
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 11:29:46 AM »
Id say no on the colder plug. Stick with D7EA's...here's why
Because of the jet overlap in any given throttle position, Sam needs to concentrate on getting  WOT Main jet mixture perfect. First.
If you work on pilot jet or mixture screw settings first, you cant make carb adjustments for needle pos and mains without messing everything else up.

For example, lets say you have your pilot/mixture screw circuit perfect....nice tan plugs, but you are still lean at WOT....well, an increase of main jet size will and does INCREASE fuel levels at every throttle position below WOT.
You've just fooked up your perfect idle/pilot mixture by going richer on the mains. ::) 
So Sam, do a vacuum sync with your current settings, and go do a WOT chop first.  Get your main jets (90/92/95/100) right first, before you move on.

2/3 throttle position chop is next, for needle clip location. lowering the needle clip a slot(towards the sharp end) makes it richer.  raising it makes it leaner. get it right before you move on.

Next, 1/4 throttle position for pilot jet size.  Get it right before you move on.

Idle chop for your mixture screw.  Set all screws to factory setting +1/2 turn(IIWM), and do another vacuum sync while you are letting deposits form on your plugs.  You should be running really well about now, and able to dial in vacuum near perfect.
As you tune this circuit, treat each carb separately.  They can and will all have slightly different screw settings.
 
Yes, it'll take a box of plugs, or 1-2 sets and a soda blaster, and a lot of fun runs, but once its done, your bike will pull like it should...and right up into the red.
Flybox, thanks for this, seriously. I browsed the PD FAQ so many times and unless I missed it, this is my first time reading this. Will need to go buy some fresh plugs and try and get on this in the coming days.
Only questions - why does the main affect everything below WOT? I would have thought that the pilot, mix screws, etc, would affect everything ABOVE idle, since they are always open, and the main gets closed with the slide needle.
Lastly, what about the header temps? Should I be concerned with those still reading above 400F? I don't wanna burn a hole in a piston.

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Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 12:31:11 PM »
at idle, vacuum is enough to be pulling fuel from every source, but its main supply is from the mixture screw.
main and needle jet circuits are not 'capped off'.  vacuum is vacuum, and it will pull fuel from the least resistant path. at idle, its the idle circuit.
as rpm increases to WOT, the pilot jet, and eventually the needle jet attain max throughput of fuel....eventually the bike needs to rely now on pulling a largest share of fuel from the main jet.  even here, at WOT, the engine is getting fuel from the idle circuit, pilot and needle jets.  they dont just stop working when the mains take over. nothing shuts them off so only fuel comes from the mains.
a bad drawing, but a better representation of the continued fuel supply from the different circuits.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 03:38:03 PM »
And what about the engine temps? Should I not be concerned about that right now?
I think the reason I haven't been able to wrap my head around the mixture screw is because it's separate from everything else. I can see how everything else connects and works logically, pilots and main, etc, but not how the mixture screw fits into the picture. I'm not even clear on how anything, gas or air, passes through there, thus I don't see how any changes made to it affect anything else

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Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 10:39:10 PM »
The screw allows you to fine tune the mixture at idle.  That's it.  Don't overthink it.  The tip of it blocks or opens a passageway. 
I wouldn't be concerned w temps as long as I am riding or have a fan on the engine.  Richer mixture = colder op temps.  Get your jetting sorted out.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2015, 07:57:52 PM »
Ordered Keihin 95 rounds and will install them along with the 42s that were in there when I purchased. I thought the stock 77 550k came with 42s, but it looks like they came with 38s, so I guess a PO did try and do some jetting work.

Gonna sync, then run the 95s/42s together to see what my WOT plugs look like. When doing tests for WOT, 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 throttle, What gear am I running these tests in (I've read 5th for WOT, but nothing for any of the other throttle positions)? For how long to get good deposit readings?

Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2015, 09:30:51 PM »
No need to be in 5th....unless you want a ticket  ;D
4th WOT is plenty.   On new plugs, 4-5 miles.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline Scott S

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2015, 09:33:43 PM »
 You haven't mentioned timing. Is the timing correct?
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Offline 754

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2015, 09:42:50 PM »
I maybe wrong but but I dont think 400 coming out the head is real hot...
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Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2015, 08:58:50 AM »
Static timing is set. Haven't gotten a timing light to check the advance yet.

I saw another thread that mentioned header temps in the 300 range, and mine are mid 400s. When my engine got smoky I figured it was time to investigate.

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Offline flybox1

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2015, 09:03:58 AM »
keep a fan on it if you need to idle more than a minute or two.
temps will even out as your mixtures improve.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline Don R

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2015, 09:34:00 AM »
 Inside the pipe temps can be 800* to 1100* We always jet the drag car to always be under 1200*. apples and oranges of course.
  Just for reference, Imagine a bell curve chart showing jets/temps We can see the same exhaust temp on the lean side of the curve AND on the rich side, an O2 sensor tells the tale of which side you're on.
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Offline evanphi

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2015, 10:45:22 AM »
SamP, check the attached doc for more explanation of how the idle mixture screw works.

It is found here: http://manuals.sohc4.net/general/
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CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
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Offline SamP

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Re: Headers/engine running hot
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2015, 03:22:47 PM »
Back to work now...

Installed the 95 mains, still have the 42 idle jets in. After a bit of futzing with the fuel levels in the bowls and some syncing, got her up and running again. Checked dynamic timing and my spark advancer seems to be in OK shape - full advance at around 2500-3000 RPM. This is around where it should be, correct?

I think my understanding of a plug chop could use some clarification. I basically synced the bike on these plugs, then rode them around for about 10 miles before running her uphill in 4th at WOT, killed the engine, coasted to a stop, and took a photo. Other sources tell me I need to use completely brand new plugs when doing a chop, but I didn't think I'd have enough deposits to make a good call on what the plugs looked like. Other sources say I need to cut away the threading on the plug to get a good read on it - hence the "chop." Any advice for a first time plug chopper?

Photo below is 1-4 left to right. I think the carbon fouling on the insulator tips of 1 and 2 is due to excessively high fuel level in those bowls before I had fixed it and synced. I am assuming I need new plugs before I even consider chopping again.



Bike starts up with choke and idles smoothly, but it runs like crap cold. Engine needs a full 5 minutes of warm up time before cracking the throttle, otherwise it starts bogging down and then dies. Kicks right back up, but crack the throttle (without choke) too early and it stalls out very quickly. With choke throttle blips are ok.

Also, engine temps are much more reasonable. The exhaust collars were around 270-295F, but I checked the oil temp with my gun and it was at like 180 or so. I've got 20w50 with some ZDDP installed.