Topic: Reign of the V-twins

[754]

When I say street, I mean insured for road use, as opposed to a bike on the track.
Do you ride mostly  stock bikes, and how about others on the street..?
Around here there is no shortage of modified bikes, , I know a guy with a dyno, so he actually. Knows what many of them are putting out..

 Like my buddy with the hotrod  sporty said.. Without fail most big Japanese. Bikes would try to run away from him (or try to)on the big hill leaving town....and he would waste them in a top gear rollon...and they would always wondered WTF he had done to it..  That's going back a bit..now.  But..the bikes around here have gotten much quicker as far as the twins go. All of the others too
 It certainly. Was not horsepower winning the rollon..

[socal1200r]

I started riding back in 1983, and owned a Suzuki GS1100 / GSX-R750, Kawasaki Ninja 650, and a Yamaha FZR1000, which were all inline 4's.  Then I got a Ducati Superlight, which totally made me relearn how to ride on the same roads.  Like has already been mentioned, with a twin, you have a lot more useable torque, so you're not shifting as often, and can carry more extrance and exit speed thru the corners.  Plus the mass of the engine is less and usually lower, so they're narrower and easier to toss around. 

After the Ducati, I had a Moto Guzzi 1100 Sport / V50 / Eldorado LAPD / EV11 / Jackal.  Also in the mix was a BMW 650LS, all twins, so I was sold on v-twins at that point.  Right now, I have a Cagiva 650 Alazzurra v-twin, Yamaha Bolt v-twin, and the CB650.  Riding the Cagiva and CB650 back to back is like apples and oranges.  The CB650 has a much stronger top end rush, it just wails all the way to redline.  The Cagiva, on the other hand, accelerates like a freight train, nothing dramatic, it just goes to it's 8K redline.  But it will outhandle the CB easily on the same roads, because of it's lighter weight and more useable torque. 

But as for the original hypothesis on the first post, v-twins are definitely a minority in today's motorcycle market.  There are a LOT more inline 4 models out there than v-twins.  Now some makers pretty much offer only twins, like Ducati, Moto Guzzi, Harley, Victory, etc.  But if you look at all the models that are offered from all the manufacturers, inline 4s will greatly outnumber v-twins. 

[754]

Thank you for an accurate. Description of what torque feels like on the street. ..and the difference. Between them and an I4
 Keep this in mind though.. Its only been like 15 years or so since HD lost its grip on heavyweight sales.. That they dominated till then.. In plain English,  they sold more 750cc and over machines than the big Japanese. Four Combined..  And that went on for decades.....

[Retro Rocket]

 Keep this in mind though.. Its only been like 15 years or so since HD lost its grip on heavyweight sales.. That they dominated till then.. In plain English,  they sold more 750cc and over machines than the big Japanese. Four Combined..  And that went on for decades.....

Maybe { and i mean maybe} in the US and Canada Frank, not anywhere else..

[754]

Worldwide..total production..

[Terry in Australia]

and were allowed extra capacity to compete with inline fours BHP, so could run up to 1000cc bikes against 750's, which gave the

I've known this for a long time but what makes this engine layout so hot if it needs a displacement advantage to be competitive?
Please make me understand!

Nope, I don't know either mate, the FIM makes the rules, and it helped Ducati sell lots of bikes. Not surprisingly Honda wanted a piece of the pie, so they brought out the VTR1000 SP1 and SP2, and Suzuki brought out their ill fated TL1000R.

I think eventually the rules were changed again and big twins (I shouldn't refer to Ducati's as V twins, because they're actually "L" twins) were no longer competitive, and of course nowadays, inline 4's reign supreme in Superbike racing.

Re: all the V twin vs inline 4 comments above, it is true that due to the architecture of a big twin (or even triple's, which are becoming popular with Yamaha's new 3 cylinder bikes) they produce most of their torque lower in their respective rev ranges than an inline 4.

No bike produces both massive torque and BHP in equal numbers, it's basically a compromise, if you want more BHP, you sacrifice some torque. Torque produces acceleration, BHP produces top end speed. My Triumph Rocket III has a capacity of 2294cc's, but only produces 143 BHP at the rear wheel, which isn't much compared to a Hayabusa's 170 BHP for only 1300cc, but the Rocket still accelerates at rocket-like speed, due to it producing 139 foot pounds of torque at only 1800 RPM. For an 800 pound behemoth, 11 second quarter mile times are a monument to it's massive torque.

Carpenter Racing in the US do a "drive in/drive out" deal which will increase the rear wheel BHP to 240(+), with a torque increase to 180 foot pounds, and that's without a capacity increase. but how far do you want to go on a bike that's essentially just a big cruiser? While my CB750 does 60 MPH @ 4000 RPM, the Triumph does 60 MPH @ 2200 RPM, and will pull cleanly to it's modest 6500 RPM redline without the need to change down a gear. (well, the electronic speed limiter stops all the fun at 140 MPH, but that's another story) Hmmmnnnn, I really must take it for a ride...........  

[754]

So again Harley dominates the heavyweight. Market for sales in Japan for 2014.
 Meaning. That all bikes over 601cc sold in Japan in 2014, by all manufacturers in the world (except HD)..all added together..is less bikes than HD sold in Japan. Last year..
 That may explain why you see so many of them...

[ofreen]

I like all the various engine configurations, have owned most of them and ridden examples of all of them, except for a Wankel. Oh yeah, I haven't ridden one of those with the turbine from a Huey either. But I would like too. Whoops, haven't ridden an e-bike either. I guess I haven't been around as much as I thought. Anyway, what is cool about motorcycles is the emphasis on 'motor.' We are connected to the motor more directly on a bike than about any other conveyance except for maybe a rocket belt. Every motor has its own characteristics that give it some appeal. Which is best? Are blondes better than brunettes, redheads better than both?  People have preferences they are willing to argue over, but I like them all for what they are. It sure simplifies my life by not having to stress over what is better then having to defend it.

[seanbarney41]

Hmmm Harleys...yeah, although they are referred to as a v-twin, they only have a single crankpin, so they are essentially just a big ass single that somehow fires twice.  Nobody else does this.  This is really what makes a Harley very different.  Comments, criticism, and value judgements are left up to you.

[ekpent]

  I just got back from a week long trip up in Northern Michigan where there is some very nice riding. My Son rode a CB750 and I rode a Harley all week and had a blast on it. You can't help but love that low end grunt and maybe makin' a little noise passing through some small towns  Was really nice when my wife rode along with me also.

[Terry in Australia]

Hmmm Harleys...yeah, although they are referred to as a v-twin, they only have a single crankpin, so they are essentially just a big ass single that somehow fires twice.  Nobody else does this.  This is really what makes a Harley very different.  Comments, criticism, and value judgements are left up to you.

Actually Sean, just about ALL V twins (including Ducati's, Honda's VTR1000, etc) share a common crank pin. When my Ducati 900SS wore out after only 20,000 Km (12000 miles) in 1990, my Ducati stealer wanted 1200 bucks for the crankpin assembly (the pin and 2 conrods) whereas a crankpin assembly for a Harley sportster was only 300 bucks.

I seriously thought about pulling that POS Ducati engine out of the frame and mounting a Sporty engine in the hole, then it would have been the best of both worlds, excellent handling and braking, and a decent, reliable, torquey V twin engine. What Greg says is common sense, we all like different things, and I'm constantly surprised by the Harley haters out there, most of whom don't know much about them.

I love the new Indian too, and I've put one on my bucket list, sure they aren't the fastest or most powerful bike out there, and they don't go around corners like a superbike, but who cares? Most of the major roads in Oz have had their corners removed to save errant car drivers, so you'd have to go looking for a road that would test your skills on a superbike, whereas "Cruiser Friendly" roads dominate this wide brown land. Actually, I like to do both (cruising and shart inducing twisties) so I have a range of motorcycles from my 50cc motorised tricycle, to my 2300cc torque monster Triumph. Life is good..........

     

[seanbarney41]

Hmmm Harleys...yeah, although they are referred to as a v-twin, they only have a single crankpin, so they are essentially just a big ass single that somehow fires twice.  Nobody else does this.  This is really what makes a Harley very different.  Comments, criticism, and value judgements are left up to you.

Actually Sean, just about ALL V twins (including Ducati's, Honda's VTR1000, etc) share a common crank pin. When my Ducati 900SS wore out after only 20,000 Km (12000 miles) in 1990, my Ducati stealer wanted 1200 bucks for the crankpin assembly (the pin and 2 conrods) whereas a crankpin assembly for a Harley sportster was only 300 bucks.

I seriously thought about pulling that POS Ducati engine out of the frame and mounting a Sporty engine in the hole, then it would have been the best of both worlds, excellent handling and braking, and a decent, reliable, torquey V twin engine. What Greg says is common sense, we all like different things, and I'm constantly surprised by the Harley haters out there, most of whom don't know much about them.

I love the new Indian too, and I've put one on my bucket list, sure they aren't the fastest or most powerful bike out there, and they don't go around corners like a superbike, but who cares? Most of the major roads in Oz have had their corners removed to save errant car drivers, so you'd have to go looking for a road that would test your skills on a superbike, whereas "Cruiser Friendly" roads dominate this wide brown land. Actually, I like to do both (cruising and shart inducing twisties) so I have a range of motorcycles from my 50cc motorised tricycle, to my 2300cc torque monster Triumph. Life is good..........

     

did not know that about single crank pins being common, thanks for the correction...did you guys get many Buell's over in Oz?  I don't know if I would consider a Buell dependable, but they gotta be better than a Ducati.

I hear ya on having a choice of bikes, one for every riding style.  I gotta emphasize that more as I develop my collection, instead of just keeping whatever cool bike falls in my lap...still, not many Harleys(or any cruiser type bikes, for that matter) impress me.  Buell did.  I think it's a shame that not  a single sport bike is made in America.

[754]

Help me here, if you thought they did not have common.....crankpin..what did you picture in your mind holding the rods to the flywheel?

[seanbarney41]

Help me here, if you thought they did not have common.....crankpin..what did you picture in your mind holding the rods to the flywheel?

Frank, I meant common as in "frequently used"...so, I thought that two con rods attached to a single crank pin was unique to Harley Davidson.  Terry corrected me by telling me that it's actually very common for a V-twin to have a single crankpin common to 2 connecting rods.

[754]

I really can't imagine any other. Way..but there is a major difference.  HD employs a forked rod.. That is one inside the other..
 Vincent for example uses side by side.. Which usually means slightly staggered cylinders..which may help cooling (Might be a source of debate..)

[seanbarney41]

It is not possible for a V-twin to have two crank pins?

[eigenvector]

we all like different things, and I'm constantly surprised by the Harley haters out there, most of whom don't know much about them.

It isn't the bike that draws the haters, it's the people on them.  In general I think you're right in that very few people know much about Harley motorcycles, but I think that partly stems from the image that a percentage of the riders project.  An image which repels many people, myself included.  Is it a majority of the riders who adopt the bad-boy image?  Possibly, although the worst offenders are definitely in a minority.  Plenty of people complain about the bikes, but ultimately I think that's just proxy for the riders themselves.  Again - the bad apples spoiling the barrel.

I may be showing my own prejudice, but you won't find do-rags, get back whips, "loud pipes save lives", coal scuttle helmets, etc on Concours or Moto Guzzi riders.  So again, I don't think it's the bike, it's the image - an image which Harley has worked very hard to maintain and encourage.  An image which other manufacturers have tried to embrace for their own line - even Triumph and their Rocket line.

In the very end, Harley certainly isn't unique in creating an image for themselves, but unlike pretty much all the other manufacturers - its the only image they have.  At least Honda can appeal to the sport bike riders, cruisers, baggers, city riders, motorcross riders, etc..

[754]

You obviously  have not seen the Motor Maids or other Harley touring clubs...nor Forbes and his Capatalist tools.
Nor the many professional people that ride HD,  or the folk that just ride their bikes with regular gear.
 The ones that stick out in your mind  are not the only ones riding them.
 Same applies to sportbike riders and other groups.

[70CB750]

Nor the many professional people that ride HD,  or the folk that just ride their bikes with regular gear.

Yeah, thats my area.  They work for feds during the week and ride the mountains on the weekend.  Or liek some of my friends who ride blue and white Harley for living and another Harley for fun.

[Terry in Australia]

did not know that about single crank pins being common, thanks for the correction...did you guys get many Buell's over in Oz?  I don't know if I would consider a Buell dependable, but they gotta be better than a Ducati.

Poor old Eric Buell, every time he almost reached the summit, someone pulled the rug out from under him. I liked the idea, but the end result was disappointing. I test rode a Buell when they first came out, and it felt like riding my Honda XR500R with Clubmans, it was so high you had to have the inner seam measurement of a Harlem Globe Trotter.

Luckily enough I'm 6'4, so it was OK, but shorter riders need not apply, unless they've got a pair of Elton John's shoes in their wardrobe. Here's the bike that Eric should have taken his design cues from, if he did, he'd (possibly) still be in business.

 

[Terry in Australia]

  I just got back from a week long trip up in Northern Michigan where there is some very nice riding. My Son rode a CB750 and I rode a Harley all week and had a blast on it. You can't help but love that low end grunt and maybe makin' a little noise passing through some small towns  Was really nice when my wife rode along with me also.

I'm jealous of your son Eric, do you reckon you could adopt me and let me borrow one of your bikes for a week's cruising in the Michigan summer? Cheers, "Sonny Boy".

[ekpent]

  I just got back from a week long trip up in Northern Michigan where there is some very nice riding. My Son rode a CB750 and I rode a Harley all week and had a blast on it. You can't help but love that low end grunt and maybe makin' a little noise passing through some small towns  Was really nice when my wife rode along with me also.

I'm jealous of your son Eric, do you reckon you could adopt me and let me borrow one of your bikes for a week's cruising in the Michigan summer? Cheers, "Sonny Boy".

I would be great for you to come to the States sometime Terry, sure a lot of folks would toss you a bike. Your 'manly" 6' 4" frame would look good on my mighty Suzuki GT185.   
  PS-My son may be available for work on your "plantation" and he has a real purdy singing voice.

[Terry in Australia]

Done and done Eric, a GT185 is a fine motorcycle (if my new fathers too lousy to loan me his sweet GT750K) and I'll be happy to employ your boy on the ol' plantation, just as soon as our government makes the magic weed legal...........

[ofreen]

It is not possible for a V-twin to have two crank pins?

Yes, Honda does it both ways, depending on what they are after and application. They go single pin if they are after something more Harley-like, staggered dual pins if they want to smooth things out.

[seanbarney41]

did not know that about single crank pins being common, thanks for the correction...did you guys get many Buell's over in Oz?  I don't know if I would consider a Buell dependable, but they gotta be better than a Ducati.

Poor old Eric Buell, every time he almost reached the summit, someone pulled the rug out from under him. I liked the idea, but the end result was disappointing. I test rode a Buell when they first came out, and it felt like riding my Honda XR500R with Clubmans, it was so high you had to have the inner seam measurement of a Harlem Globe Trotter.

Luckily enough I'm 6'4, so it was OK, but shorter riders need not apply, unless they've got a pair of Elton John's shoes in their wardrobe. Here's the bike that Eric should have taken his design cues from, if he did, he'd (possibly) still be in business.

 

yeah, they are tall, but I didn't think they were any worse than other sport bikes.  I am short-ish, with particularly short legs, at 5'8"...and I had no problems with the upright position of my buddie's XB9.  I was somewhat disappointed with it's handling,  (Maybe I'm just spoiled by my VF500 Interceptor) but everything else is amazing, like the power wheelie on command in gears 1, 2, 3 acceleration, and the pinky finger front perimeter brake.  And it has certainly proved itself more dependable than his Shovelheads.  In my opinion, the only reason Buell failed, was that Harley Davidson did not promote them enough.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=JN.jg91ARjMr0wsFaYvyIqXlA&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0