Topic: Sand Cast Reply

[Swoop]

The big issue here, IMHO, is a Sandcast case with a a later oil pan. This would be uber uber uber rare.
KMB Would be be very interested in that!

Steve

[kmb69]

Yeh, but no pictures yet! Highly doubtful such a specimen exist.

[kmb69]

Here's some stuff published by Motorcyclist in 2012. Kind of puts to bed the "first 1000 made in California" stuff. Note that they were calling it a "K0" (2012 nomenclature).

[754]

Looks sorta like Honda techs, assembling cb750(according to Honda parts book), in Gardena, aided by Chicago Pneumatic air tools..

[kmb69]

It is a picture from the Bob Jameson archives, one of the CB750 visionaries. He and Bob Hansen were purportedly central to talking Soichiro into building the CB750 as a 4 cylinder engine. Stated that the picture was taken March 15, 1969, in the Hamamatsu assembly plant. Does not look like a Chicago Pneumatic wrench to me. I have several CP's from that period and they sure don't look like that one.

[David B]

My Sandcast collection numbers 22 bikes (a few disassembled but complete) and a few extra engines at this point in time counting one bike I still have to retrieve from Wisconsin. The bike shop is a real clutter right now but we are in the process of making it presentable. I just retired in January and we are working on it. Been focusing on the machine shop, Jr's rear wheel, and some other parts for the racers right now. A special NASA project interrupted everything for a couple of months but it's done now. Will post some pics before long.

Looking forward to those pics!!  Let us know what time the shop tours will be offered and what admission costs. 

[Powderman]

I don't think that pic puts anything to rest. It merely states the first one was made there, not the next 1000. I thought it was common knowledge that the sandcasts were not considered K0's until many years later.
What do they mean by "the first one.?  Wasn't the one that appeared at the Tokyo Show in Nov. 1968 the "first one"? I suppose that one wasn't off the "assembly line".

[754]

If any of your early bikes have RC Stuff in them, that was made in Gardena..
Myself i think it may be possible some where assembled in California.
 According to my partsbook, England , France, Germany... Did not get any of the first 5000 made... At lest not thru dealers there.

[kmb69]

1. I don't think that pic puts anything to rest. It merely states the first one was made there, not the next 1000......
2. What do they mean by "the first one.?  Wasn't the one that appeared at the Tokyo Show in Nov. 1968 the "first one"? I suppose that one wasn't off the "assembly line".

1. So maybe they just built an assembly plant in Hamamatsu for "the first one" photos.    "The first one" was referring to the first production bike. The presentation, all 10 parts, made by Bob Jameson in 2009 at AMA VMD Classic Club is all on video on YouTube. In 10 of 10, he describes the development and assembly in Hamamatsu. Bob worked for Honda and lived in California at the time. NO mention was ever made of any California assembly. DID NOT HAPPEN! 

2. The bike in the Tokyo Show in 1968 was a prototype. Close inspection of those pictures show many differences compared to the production bikes.

The first bike we received at Pasadena Honda was a 2 digit VIN and it DEFINITELY came out of a crate that was shipped from Japan. As were ALL the CB750's we received. Believe what you will but TN, who I think started the California assembly BS, has written many "facts" about the Sandcast bikes that have proven to be absolutely incorrect BS.

[Powderman]

I'll view all the youtube vids and educate myself.

[kmb69]

Yep, sure looks like Gardena to me. Parts book, Sandcast motors and all!
But, it still doesn't prove anything for the hardliners.
I guess one could argue these were not part of the first 1,000! 

[Stev-o]

kmb - what is the source of those ^^^ pics?

Have not seen them before, thanks for posting.

[kmb69]

Their origin is a Japanese publication on the Honda CB750 history.
I have the book in my stash somewhere but not sure of the title.
They were also posted last year over on the SOOC Forum.

[HondaMan]

KMB:
Can I talk you into taking those to Kinko's, scanning them, and making me copies for my 750 scrapbook? I'd cover the $$, gladly...

[Tews19]

Me too! Those pictures are awesome! Thanks for more sharing of great info KMB!

[kmb69]

Mark, You can "right-click" and "save picture as" off the forum.
I am up to my a$$ in alligators right now working on some really hot parts for Russ, Billy, and Spanky.

[HondaMan]

I have a couple of questions re: this video:
1. Craig Vetter lived in Illinois when he created the Vetter Fairing company, the factory was in Rantoul, IL. I was there several times myself in the 1970-1973 era. To my knowledge, Craig never made a handlebar fairing for the 750: the one picture in this video is clearly a Bates, or if not, one close enough to a Bates to cause a lawsuit?
2. He states the "..engine was turned on its left side into a box [sic] and then the frame lowered over it to install.." - anyone ever tried that? The engine goes out/in the right side of the bike, left side dominant. I'm not even sure it is possible to insert it from the left side?

[HondaMan]

Mark, You can "right-click" and "save picture as" off the forum.
I am up to my a$$ in alligators right now working on some really hot parts for Russ, Billy, and Spanky right now.

Yes, thanks: I was hoping for a higher-quality version?

I'm not in any hurry: a year from now is also OK. It's taken me 40+ to gather the rest of my scrapbook!
(That's also where most of my book came from!)

[kmb69]

Bob Jameson Hansen died in February, 2013. He was 90 years old when those videos were made in 2009. I am sure he was having an elder moment when he made the "left side down" comment. He also called it a CB450 at one point in the presentation. The factory pictures clearly show the right side down for the frame installation. That was quite possibly a handlebar fairing for a CB450 or such that they were using.

Sorry Mr. Jameson.

[HondaMan]

Bob Jameson died in February, 2013. He was 90 years old when those videos were made in 2009. I am sure he was having an elder moment when he made the "left side down" comment. He also called it a CB450 at one point in the presentation. The factory pictures clearly show the right side down for the frame installation. That was quite possibly a handlebar fairing for a CB450 or such that they were using.

Ah, I see!
Thanks!

[Ujeni]

Hi resolution versions of the factory photos are available through my flickr account. Just click the pics.

















It should be noted that I am not the owner of these prints. They were provided by a fellow sandcast enthusiast on the sandcast forum.

[754]

So. I am seeing left side horn mounts, but finned oil filter housings !
 I thought horn changed around #1300 ish.
But I thought a lot more had smooth filter housings, ie most sandcast ?
No wonder the smoothies are hard to find..
Any idea of date of pics ? I always thought they started off production slowly then it slowly sped up.
Now i am convinced they were not built in the USA.
Wonder where my frame #572 ended up ?  ?
 

[kmb69]

Thanks, Sam.

This article at http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1969cb750four/index.html says, "The initial production forecast of 25 units per day was pushed up to over 100 units."

I cannot find the date of the factory pictures.

[kmb69]

So. I am seeing left side horn mounts, but finned oil filter housings !
I thought horn changed around #1300 ish.
But I thought a lot more had smooth filter housings, ie most sandcast ?
No wonder the smoothies are hard to find..
........

Very good observation Frank. The more we find out, the more we find out we don't know about the Sandcast and K0 production. There were 7,414 of the Sandcast made but only a little more than 400 accounted for. What we think we know is that Honda dramatically underestimated the demand for the CB750 and would use whatever pieces they had available to assemble a bike. Out of the 400+ Sandcasts we know of, there are over 90 distinctions that have been identified. Those are obviously early Sandcast frames with the left hand horn and finned oil filter housings in the factory pictures. We also know some K0's showed up with smooth oil filter housings. My engine CB750E-1007419 is essentially a NOS engine and it has a smooth oil filter housing. That engine was pulled from a brand new CB750 K0 and installed in a sprint car but was never run except for setup at the dealer. We do know of other K0's that came with smooth housings. So nobody really knows how many smooth cups were actually made. Honda issued a Service Bulletin CB750 #13 in January, 1970 regarding the updated oil filter bolt and oil filter housing "#2" referencing VINS CB750-1001783 through CB750-1009554. No mention of VINS prior to 1783. We also know some of the finned oil filter housings did not have the internal ribbing for strength. They were for all practical purposes the same on the inside as the smooth housings and appear to be much rarer than the smooth housings. So keep your eyes peeled for one of them. 

[markb]

So. I am seeing left side horn mounts, but finned oil filter housings !
 I thought horn changed around #1300 ish.

According to the list of distinctions on the SOOC site, the left hand horn went up to VIN 3950.