Topic: 1973 CB350F "Modest Original" build

[iiAtlas]

I hope to find one of those someday from someone who's desperate for $.. an 'it's all gotta go,Moving sale,etc.' and that is one nice vintage Volvo,I'd trade my 240 for it ANY day 

She sure is sweet!  And bulletproof to boot.  Beautiful transmission and pulls a lot harder than the MG B.  We've have this one up above 90mph, good times.  She's "in" for new rings and maybe a rear main seal.

[RAFster122s]

Not pushing her hard at all, I had my 66 122S up to 95+ on the back straight of the Indanoplis Speedway on our "parade lap". Man that banking is intense...
The D-Jetronics works great when you replace all the worn components and get all the seals  replaced and clean up the electrical contacts.
Friend's 164 w/ Djet purrs like a kitten until you step on it then she roars to life...love that car.

[iiAtlas]

Not pushing her hard at all, I had my 66 122S up to 95+ on the back straight of the Indanoplis Speedway on our "parade lap". Man that banking is intense...
The D-Jetronics works great when you replace all the worn components and get all the seals  replaced and clean up the electrical contacts.
Friend's 164 w/ Djet purrs like a kitten until you step on it then she roars to life...love that car.

Hah! Awesome.  This was weber conversion when we got it, would like to go back to D-jet at some point!

[iiAtlas]

It's Christmas!



Hope you all had a wonderful holiday and a happy New Year.  Back in town and ready to get a couple of these bikes back on the road!  The CL is first on the chopping block.  The to-do...



Then back to my little 350 Four!

[grcamna2]

I hope to find one of those someday from someone who's desperate for $.. an 'it's all gotta go,Moving sale,etc.' and that is one nice vintage Volvo,I'd trade my 240 for it ANY day 

She sure is sweet!  And bulletproof to boot.  Beautiful transmission and pulls a lot harder than the MG B.  We've have this one up above 90mph, good times.  She's "in" for new rings and maybe a rear main seal.

Does it have a B21 engine ?

[iiAtlas]

I hope to find one of those someday from someone who's desperate for $.. an 'it's all gotta go,Moving sale,etc.' and that is one nice vintage Volvo,I'd trade my 240 for it ANY day 

She sure is sweet!  And bulletproof to boot.  Beautiful transmission and pulls a lot harder than the MG B.  We've have this one up above 90mph, good times.  She's "in" for new rings and maybe a rear main seal.

B20

Does it have a B21 engine ?

[RAFster122s]

B21F with K-Jetronics was used from '76-82.5
Rare was the B21F with L-Jetronics with B23F replacing 2.1L with 2.3L in '83.  The L -Jetronics going through a couple revisions until B230 motor made the scene with smaller big bearing surfaces in crank.

The B21FT being a lower compression turbo charged motor used in the  '82-85 240 Turbos.  At first an oil cooled design with water cooled in 85 if I remember correctly. The B230FT replacing it in the 740 -760 and 940-960 turbo motored cars.  All being water cooled turbos.  The turbos being entertaining to drive...sedan being a little more fun than the wagons was my experience.  The added weight of the glass in the wagon's tail making the handling feel very different and the perception of the acceleration being slower on the couple turbo wagons I had driven.  It could have been they had motors that were not properly tuned or were worn but, I liked the sedan turbo better.  Never owned one though.

Frank and Joe Derks of London Ontario put a B23E motor with Getrag 5 speed in a P1800 and Frank would often street race it.  It was very quick.  But, Frank had a bad habit of dropping the clutch and breaking the rear axle/drive on the car.  It was a beautiful blue metallic paint on the car...similar to Planet Blue of the CBs.
Joe was a Volvo Master Mechanic at the dealer in London. They had the fun of modifying the B23 to sit upright in the engine bay rather than leaning as it did in all other cars...

David

[iiAtlas]

B21F with K-Jetronics was used from '76-82.5
Rare was the B21F with L-Jetronics with B23F replacing 2.1L with 2.3L in '83.  The L -Jetronics going through a couple revisions until B230 motor made the scene with smaller big bearing surfaces in crank.

The B21FT being a lower compression turbo charged motor used in the  '82-85 240 Turbos.  At first an oil cooled design with water cooled in 85 if I remember correctly. The B230FT replacing it in the 740 -760 and 940-960 turbo motored cars.  All being water cooled turbos.  The turbos being entertaining to drive...sedan being a little more fun than the wagons was my experience.  The added weight of the glass in the wagon's tail making the handling feel very different and the perception of the acceleration being slower on the couple turbo wagons I had driven.  It could have been they had motors that were not properly tuned or were worn but, I liked the sedan turbo better.  Never owned one though.

Frank and Joe Derks of London Ontario put a B23E motor with Getrag 5 speed in a P1800 and Frank would often street race it.  It was very quick.  But, Frank had a bad habit of dropping the clutch and breaking the rear axle/drive on the car.  It was a beautiful blue metallic paint on the car...similar to Planet Blue of the CBs.
Joe was a Volvo Master Mechanic at the dealer in London. They had the fun of modifying the B23 to sit upright in the engine bay rather than leaning as it did in all other cars...

David

Hah!  Neat info..thanks David. 

[grcamna2]

My 87' 240 is the most durable car I've ever owned,had it since 01'  480K & still going strong I installed a 93' B230F 'L' engine after having it fully rebuilt w/ the car having only 130K on it at the time when i bought it.I plan on looking for a 93' 240 when i move out West this yr. That salt they use around here is a killer.
David,Do you think any of the parts on my 87' will interchange w/ the later model/yr. 240's ?
I don't mean to 'thread-jack' Atlas,sorry.

[540nova]

This post has really drifted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[iiAtlas]

This post has really drifted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It will make it's way back!  How about a picture of the way she started for some re-inspiration...

[grcamna2]

Before... and AFTER  I hope you do a set of photos like that Atlas. 

[iiAtlas]

Before... and AFTER  I hope you do a set of photos like that Atlas. 

You can bet I will!

[MoMo]

Atlas, what is to the right of the 350?  Larry

[iiAtlas]

Atlas, what is to the right of the 350?  Larry

That's my '77 R100/7..the start of it all!..lots of info here.













Love the thing to death   

[iiAtlas]

Hello hello hello!  I am stuck in the real world until Jan 31.  That is the deadline I gave myself.  Come then I am taking a two week CB350F full focus "vacation" where I can really dive in and make some more ground on the ol gal ~~ I hope you all are excited, I know I am!!

Some parts arrived for the CL350 today so I took a brief hiatus to make some ground there.  Todays project: Pamco install.





I am definitely ordering that Motion Pro two way valve.  Despite MoMo's tip about plugging both ends and lifting the tank I still managed to dose the place in gasoline -- ordered.


an interlude, we dropped the front cross member on the P1800 and were able to remove the oil pan.  This gave access to the connecting rods.  Now we have the pistons out and have ordered new rings.  None broken but significant blow by.  Cylinder walls look exceptional with little to no ridge at the top of the stroke after nearly 100k miles.



Now back to our scheduled transmission


To install the new ignition the old points, advance, and condenser had to come out.  They didn't put up much of a fight, but the condenser mounting screws are in a dastardly location (like much else on this bike).  The two screws holding the bracket in place are inaccessible by about 1/3 of a mm.  Really, really, annoying.  This bike likes to tempt you with it's easy to find screws, brackets, etc, but then smash your dreams when you try to get a screw driver in there and just can't reach.  Okay I'm being melodramatic.  I grabbed a pair of vice grips and went at it from the side, that did the trick.  Maybe hex head bolts would be a better approach here..



I will need a new points cover gasket.  Surprisingly hard to find..

While I was hear I decided to finally measure the spark plug cap resistance as Calj77 had recommended.  The results were quite telling...





!?!?  I was reading around and found 9.5k ohms to be the service ceiling for these 5k ohm spark plug caps.  Yikes!  This are both nearly there, the right one especially!!  And to think they simply screw off..Cal I want to say sorry for delaying this so long, what an easy easy job and very informative.  Figure this..more resistance through cap = weaker spark, weaker spark = more unburnt fuel = rich mixture.  This could be what is giving us that excessively rich mixture!  Or at least contributing.  I will be ordering new spark plug caps.  These NGK 5k ohms should do the trick.  The wire also looks..rough



Is this reusable?  As with most of these early Hondas the plug wire is affixed to the coil.  If I were to replace the wire, would I need to replace the coil with a removable type?  Is there any way to test the wire without removing it from the coil?

Moving forward, it was time to get soldering.  I took my loose wiring diagram (copied from http://www.cb450ignition.com/Installation3500.htm) and mapped it out.  I ordered a handful of 3.5mm bullet connectors, male, female, and double female + sheathing and heat shrink to work with.  Plan of attach was tin the wire, slip on the connector and heat shrink, crimp, load with solder, cover with sheathing, seal with heat shrink, and finally close up with electrical tape.  It may be no CalJ job...but it should do for me!   

My soldering station..this garage is a MESS



Starting with the double females off the e-advance (sensor side).  One black and one red from each electronic point pickup unit connect in here.



Then a single female bullet for the white and green wires.  These go to the remaining wires on the electronic points.





Moving on to the new ignition, all six wires here got single male bullets.  I had a decent flow going by this point so they went on without much fuss.





Now back to the e advance unit.  On the coil side I installed two male bullets.  These go to the existing coil pickups, (L & R) one blue and one yellow.  The harness has a dual female bullet on the ends now, one where the old points hooked up and one for the old condenser.  I will only be using one side of the dual bullet with the new ignition.



The final step is to solder on a bolt hook for a frame ground, and tap into the black w/ white stripe wire for +12v. 



There is a dual bullet on the black w/ white stripe wire now, with one bullet going to each coil.  I'll be snipping the current connection and in it's place installing a triple female bullet.  This will allow the new ignition to be fully "plug n play".  The owner should be able to convert back to the OEM points with no splices or changes required.  Nice!  Just have to order the 3.5mm triple female or see if a local electronics store has one or 10.

All in all good progress!  I am amazed at the results of the spark plug cap resistance check.  Wow.  Thank you Cal for the heads up on that I will now be going vehicle to vehicle and checking!!

Friday we will install the two way motion pro valve and finish up the Pamco installation.  Until next time 

[iiAtlas]

Plug caps are too often overlooked 
The plug wire can be trimmed and a new cap installed. Just don't cut too much, else the plug wire won't reach the coil afterwards and you will be replacing the coil.
Soldered, crimped, and shrink wrapped allows you to skip the electrical tape. Besides, it's messy stuff 
I'd encourage you NOT to use a soldered ground point. Find any stock chassis screw that's convenient for your ignition install. In fact, the coils bracket, horn mount, seat latch...anything. Put a run terminal on the end of the ground wire, slip the screw through it, tighten it. Done.

Thanks Cal!!  Sadly I am already borderline on the plug wire length...will see how much I can get away with.  Went with the electrical tape around the bottom because my heat shrink wasn't shrink-y enough...

Plan is one of these for the ground to a bolt most likely near the battery box, there seems to be decent space in there.



Thoughts on a plug wire splice?

https://www.amazon.com/NGK-J-1-Racing-Cable-Splicer/dp/B0018JXIXI

[iiAtlas]

Yep, those splices work well. Meant to mention that in my last post.

Okay one more for ya -- any easy way to test the remaining spark plug wire for wear/resistance and the coils?  Would like to know where they stand as now would be the time to replace them!  Appreciate all the help Cal!!

[RAFster122s]

You can do some surgery on the coils if you are inclined. Price out some new wire to figure the cost of the copper core wire. Then a tube or two of JB weld and some silicone glue. The spark plug wire goes through the body connecting at the opposite end of where it enters. You have to cut the plastic body back and carve a groove for your new wire. Cut the old wire leaving room in the coil body to solder the end of the copper core to the end of the copper  wire nside the coil.  Then you cover the connection with silicone and when set you then pot around the wire with the epoxy to hold it in place.  Alternatively some just fill below and around the wire with silicone.  Just can't pull on the wires without risking separating the silicone from the body of the coil.  Wipe down the wire with acetone and then denatured alcohol to remove and mold release or oxidation of the rubber sheath of your new wires.  Leave a couple inches extra so you don't have to redo wires when you replace the plug caps again and trim off 3/4" for your new caps.

Allternatively, pick up a pair of new aftermarket coils from cb750supply.com for $36/ each.  HondaMan recommends them as a great stock coil replacement.

[RAFster122s]

BTW, Dime City carries a replacement coil for $36 as well but the wire connection to the coils looks funny.  Another optionis to use NGK coil wire splice kits.  You cut the existing wire out of the coil for proper length to use the splice kit.  4into1 carries them and I am sure others do as well.
 Just buy new copper core wire and splice in new wire and use some new NGK cap ends (XD03F and SD03F,pair of each for thread terminal ends or the E model caps for the other plug type ends...)

[grcamna2]

Nice work Atlas 
The Volvo P1800 looks good too;I'm still on my orig. pistons and bore w/ new rings installed at 130K and I have 480K on my 93' B230F engine now w/ plenty of power and strong compression.I think changing the oil & filter on these Volvo engines at regular intervals will make them last forever.

[iiAtlas]

You can do some surgery on the coils if you are inclined. Price out some new wire to figure the cost of the copper core wire. Then a tube or two of JB weld and some silicone glue. The spark plug wire goes through the body connecting at the opposite end of where it enters. You have to cut the plastic body back and carve a groove for your new wire. Cut the old wire leaving room in the coil body to solder the end of the copper core to the end of the copper  wire nside the coil.  Then you cover the connection with silicone and when set you then pot around the wire with the epoxy to hold it in place.  Alternatively some just fill below and around the wire with silicone.  Just can't pull on the wires without risking separating the silicone from the body of the coil.  Wipe down the wire with acetone and then denatured alcohol to remove and mold release or oxidation of the rubber sheath of your new wires.  Leave a couple inches extra so you don't have to redo wires when you replace the plug caps again and trim off 3/4" for your new caps.

Allternatively, pick up a pair of new aftermarket coils from cb750supply.com for $36/ each.  HondaMan recommends them as a great stock coil replacement.

BTW, Dime City carries a replacement coil for $36 as well but the wire connection to the coils looks funny.  Another optionis to use NGK coil wire splice kits.  You cut the existing wire out of the coil for proper length to use the splice kit.  4into1 carries them and I am sure others do as well.
 Just buy new copper core wire and splice in new wire and use some new NGK cap ends (XD03F and SD03F,pair of each for thread terminal ends or the E model caps for the other plug type ends...)

Thanks for the info RAF!  I would really like to "test" these coils and remaining spark plug wires lengths.  Is there any easy way to do so?  And would a test be very informative?

I assume this is the coil you mentioned.



It doesn't mention CL350 as a 'fit' but the 5k ohm output is correct.  I am assume this just means the mounts won't quite be right.  I would PREFER a coil with removable spark plug leads, if I were to go the replacement route.  This seems more future-proof.  Something like the dynatek 5k ohm ones http://4into1.com/dynatek-5-ohm-black-coils-single-output-dc10-1/.  What are your thoughts on these?

Nice work Atlas 
The Volvo P1800 looks good too;I'm still on my orig. pistons and bore w/ new rings installed at 130K and I have 480K on my engine now w/ plenty of power and strong compression.I think changing the oil & filter on these Volvo engines at regular intervals will make them last forever.

I think you are right!!! That is awesome grcamna2 -- ENJOY 

[iiAtlas]

Okay went down there this AM to take another look.  I pulled apart the black w/ white stripe existing bullet et voila!  It's a quad - score!  Last night I misread this as a double.  This means I won't need to go with the triple and can just plug right into the back.  Neat-o.  I will solder on the remaining bullets today.



I also decided to try to poke around and work out this coil resistance and what not...first step primary winding.  Cobbling together what I gathered off the internet for various bikes, I decided to stick one lead of my multimeter on one of the signal wires (yellow for L, blue for R), and the other on one of the existing black w/ white stripe bullets.  Success!  And the readings were indeed informative.  Here is Right:

4.8 ohms resistance, right in the 5 ohm desired range!


And Left:


Spot on!  Then I figured to check the secondary winding I could leave one lead in the signal wire for the coil (yellow or blue) and stick the other lead up the spark plug wire with the cap off.  These results mean less to me..but maybe someone can interpret them.

10.12k ohms for the left


9.76k ohms for the right


Now I figured, for science sake, lets try the same test but with the spark plug caps back on. 

18.17k ohms for the left


19.16k ohms for the right


This makes PERFECT SENSE!  I love it when things like this click.  If we recall the last post the left and right spark plug caps were showing somewhere in the region of 8k ohms resistance and 9k ohms resistance.  Each wire was around 10kohms..8 (or 9) to 10 = 18 and 19k ohms!  Just as we see above!

To many of you this is a "well...duh" moment but to me it is pretty neat.  Would love to hear your thoughts on the ~10k ohm figure I am seeing out the secondary side of the coil through the spark plug wire.  Is this good shape?  What is my ballpark. 

Thank you!

[iiAtlas]

15K through the coil is ideal (for 5k coils  )

For the secondary winding?  And I am getting 10k and 9.7k..?  Do they go down as they wear?  Thanks cal!  I assume the first two figures for the primary winding of 4.7 and 5 ohm are good - right?  Unless I did the tests wrong!!

[iiAtlas]

Primary + Secondary = ~15k
You might see slight variations in your readings due to resistance of the power wires, plug wires (individually) and the Yellow/Blue wire connections. You're in search of a total within the accepted range (15k for 5.O coils).

Comprende - looks like I am all there so that is sweet!


The wiring on the Pamco ignition is COMPLETE!  Finding that four bullet female meant I could tackle the job today.  Step one was to solder on the remaining bullet and ring terminal.  Done and done.  Then I began by wiring the electronic advance unit (sensor side) to electronic points plate.





Very satisfied with these bullets so far.  A nice snap and they're in!  I moved over to the other side of the unit, out the coil end.  Two leads acting as signal wires, one to each coil.  The ring terminal connected to a frame ground, I chose this nice bracket with the spark plug holder in it and gave it a light sanding before attaching.  And finally the red bullet to the four female black w/ white stripe connector.  This is (I believe) +12v off the ignition switch.



At this point I figured it was time for a test run.  Everything was loosely laid out but I didn't want to affix it to it's final home just yet in case there were any issues.



I had HOPED to be able to run this with the tank off...



...but I made a mess with the temporary fuel lines so lets just move on and pretend I didn't do that.  It seemed my only option was to install the tank fully (with the dreaded cross flow tube) before I continued.  This meant finalizing the install somewhat more.

PS: I also installed new fuel line off the petcock with some cool "moose" clamps.  The two way quick disconnect valve will be going on that long crossflow tube.



I started by bundling the sensor side bullets on top of the e-advance unit.  This seemed to be a decent coupler.  I convinced them to stay put with a zip tie.



The box was then pressed into place just in front of the battery, it was a perfect fit.





From here I zip tied the bundle through the frame.  It is quite solid, but not to tight to worry me.  I snaked the right side out, along the frame, and to the rest of the coil wires.





The other side also went out, along the frame, and met up with the points signal sender unit.





Both sides of the unit are zip tied under the main frame rail to keep them from getting snagged on the tank or anything else.  You can see in this picture from under the tank.



And with the tank mounted everything is still good and snug!



All in all I was very happy with how this wired up!  The bullets are high quality and the installation was relatively unintrustive.  No changes to the stock harness were made, and all the necessary parts found a home.  Now for the big moment....

Yes! Yes! Yes!  She runs and sounds awesome.  I continued with the install and adjusted the points plate with the timing light.  After a slight adjustment, the fire mark is spot on and the advance kicks in when it is supposed to (Very early, 1300rpm with this unit).  Sweet! 

Now just waiting on those new plug caps and I think this bike will be really happy.  I still plan on decreasing the float height to about 24mm as it is still seeping out the float bowl tops.  Really happy with the Pamco so far, and I think the bike is to!  Took it one rev to 5k and it snapped up no problem.  Will wait for the new caps before trying more.