Topic: Possible Restoration Project - Have Some Questions First

[WingMan71]

All,

I'm looking at a 1977 CB400F as a possible purchase for my next restoration project, but have some questions to get answered before I decide to buy it.

It's a barn find with 30k original miles on it that the current owner found and bought about a year ago.  He did some work on it to clean it up and did get it running but now he's giving up.

Here's the bike condition and my questions:

1. The bike has run in the last year, but is not running now.  The charging system will not charge the battery.  He claims that the bike has a "dual charging system with a regulator/rectifier on each side".  I've certainly never heard of any such arrangement on a Honda 4-cylinder engine, and kind of think that maybe he's just counting ignition coils!  That said, is there perhaps an aftermarket charging system like that for this bike?  Also, are regulators and rectifiers still available for this engine, either OEM or aftermarket?

2. The bike has a significant head gasket leak.  No big deal... I've pulled and rebuilt heads before.  But... the question is: can the head be pulled on this bike without removing the engine from the frame?  I looked, and the Factory Service Manual is not clear on this issue.  Also, are head gaskets even available for this engine anymore, either OEM or aftermarket?

Other than those two things it looks like a pretty standard restoration job.  The original 4-into-1 exhaust system and muffler are still on the bike and not rusted through anywhere.  Seat needs to be recovered.  Fenders may need to be re-chromed but are OK for now as a daily driver.  Gas tank is in good shape with one tiny little dent in it, but good paint and fairly rust free inside.  Side covers are in good shape.  Front brakes have already been rebuilt.  Front forks will need to be rebuilt, seals leak.  Tires are only about a year old.  Needs a new battery.  Seat key lock mechanism is missing!

So, that's what I'm looking at.

I'd appreciate advice on the cylinder head removal issue and the charging system issue.

Also, what would you pay for this bike in the condition described.

Thanks for any advice!

***

[calj737]

1. The bike has run in the last year, but is not running now.  The charging system will not charge the battery.  He claims that the bike has a "dual charging system with a regulator/rectifier on each side".  I've certainly never heard of any such arrangement on a Honda 4-cylinder engine, and kind of think that maybe he's just counting ignition coils!  That said, is there perhaps an aftermarket charging system like that for this bike?  Also, are regulators and rectifiers still available for this engine, either OEM or aftermarket?

There is a single Regulator and separate Rectifier for the bike, and only 1 of each. There are aftermarket and report units available (pricey) that are fully compatible, as well as used good condition units around.

2. The bike has a significant head gasket leak.  No big deal... I've pulled and rebuilt heads before.  But... the question is: can the head be pulled on this bike without removing the engine from the frame?  I looked, and the Factory Service Manual is not clear on this issue.  Also, are head gaskets even available for this engine anymore, either OEM or aftermarket?

Yes, you can pull the head while in the frame. Yes, gaskets are widely available. There are a number of O-rings, pucks and the like often involved in contributing to oil leaks at the head. You'll also need new exhaust crush washers when you remove the exhaust.

Also, what would you pay for this bike in the condition described.

A running, titled bike in near original condition is worth far more than one that is not. No matter what you "see" or "hear" from a Seller, expect fully to discover that someone has molested that bike somewhere along its life and you will be confronted with more than anticipated. A non-running bike (what works and what doesn't?) should always be approached with tremendous skepticism. If this is your first restoration, you will be spending more repairing than you currently plan.

Location, market, color and condition all effect the price. Me, I wouldn't pay more than $1,000 for a really good condition non-tuning bike with a title and some evidence of owner history. From someone who bought it a year ago, and is flipping it as a non-runner, cut that in half. My opinion.

Thanks for any advice!

***

[WingMan71]

Thanks very much for the advice calj737.

Very glad to hear that the head can be removed with the engine in the frame.  Not so on most of the DOHC 4s.

This is not my first restoration project.  I've been restoring UJMs for several years now.

My last two were an '81 CB650C, which I sold, and I just finished an '81 CB750C, which I still have.  You can check out the CB750C here:

http://s1190.photobucket.com/user/BobUSNA71/slideshow/1981%20Honda%20CB750C%20Restored

I had to pull the engine and rebuild the head on the CB750C to replace a bent exhaust valve!  Heavy engine and lots of work, but she looks and runs like new now.

***

[Bankerdanny]

Frame of reference: different bike/different market, but I paid $1,200 for my 550F, running well, with title, 2 months ago here in Chicago.

The original exhaust in good condition adds substantial value in my opinion. You could easily drop several hundred dollars buying one on eBay.

Don't be too sure that rechroming is needed, you would be surprise how nice chrome cleans up with some 0000 steel wool and a good polish. If it doesn't, you should be able to buy used replacements. Rechroming in the US can be really pricey and not worth the cost if you aren't doing a show quality resto.

"Ran when parked" are famous last words and mean zip. It either runs or it doesn't, and if it doesn't run, then a big discount is required. Personally I would think the $500 cal suggested is a little low, but not by much. I would start there and probably wouldn't go over $750. And based on the 'dual reg/rec' comment I wouldn't trust anything this person says about condition because he clearly knows nothing about bikes.

You don't mention title status. In Illinois no title is a BIG deal and reduces the value of the nicest, cleanest running bike (except for Harley's, which seem to be immune to this issue) substantially. No title and no-running = $500 or less in my opinion.

[WingMan71]

...
You don't mention title status. In Illinois no title is a BIG deal and reduces the value of the nicest, cleanest running bike (except for Harley's, which seem to be immune to this issue) substantially. No title and no-running = $500 or less in my opinion.

No title on the bike.  Bill of sale only.

But, I forgot to ask if the bike is even currently registered and tagged.  If not, that will require a police inspection/VIN check and them filling out a Georgia form T22 for the bike.  Without that I can't even get it registered.

I forgot to ask, so thanks for reminding me.

Also, upon further investigation this is supposedly a 1977 model, but is has a solid red 1995 gas tank and black side covers which I think were 1976 only.  Also it has low handle bars like the '75 and '76 models.  This '77 model is supposed to have the higher handlebars.

Beginning to look like this bike is all cobbled together from various pieces from everywhere!  Bummer. 

***

[Bankerdanny]

Being a 'bitsa' bike (bits of this bits of that) is no big deal in my opinion unless you are planning a show bike. It's actually kind of liberating because you can feel free to make whatever mod's you want because you aren't messing with an original bike. It also helps keep the purchase price down.

[calj737]

Being a 'bitsa' bike (bits of this bits of that) is no big deal in my opinion unless you are planning a show bike. It's actually kind of liberating because you can feel free to make whatever mod's you want because you aren't messing with an original bike. It also helps keep the purchase price down.

Right back to my original $500 number, eh Danny?