Author Topic: Missing horsepower  (Read 4488 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Missing horsepower
« on: October 07, 2016, 12:06:33 pm »
I have just had my CB 750 on the dyno bench. I would lie if i said i wasn't disappointed. 50 hp on the rear wheel.

Problem is i run 810cc, portet head, new valves, action four ss-1 cam, Tmr32 carbs.

The guy who portet the head said he had expected around 70hp.

I ran a cr test and it was 9/ 9,5

Any suggestion to where i maybe can find the missing HP??




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Tim2005

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,377
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2016, 12:56:40 pm »
Did the dyno give a printout with the air/fuel ratio values?

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2016, 01:59:16 pm »
Yes i did, ran way to rich with 150mains, ended up with 137,5 still a bit rich at top but had a lean spot around 4- 4500 rpm. Considering, maybe carbs are to big :/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

  • This MuthaF'er is getting to be a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,890
  • Bought her new 4/75
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2016, 02:21:19 pm »
Could be the carbs. With my 810, Yoshi Daytona cam, stock F0 head, stock carbs, Kerker at 6900' I was running 115's with the needles pulled up one notch and it was a tad on the rich side.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2016, 02:30:07 pm »
we talked about getting even smaller jets, but are nervous around getting the midrange too lean.
Think, I have to recheck valve clearence and timing

Offline Medyo Bastos

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,562
  • Gusto mo titi ko?
    • project
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 03:20:54 pm »
or paint it red!


...Save a tree, eat a beaver...

Offline dragracer

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,069
  • CB750F Dragbike
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 04:27:51 pm »
Did you verify cam timing??

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2016, 07:19:30 pm »
50 RWHP is less than a stock 750? My 836 with a stock un-ported K1 head and Weber carbs with 30mm chokes put out 70 RWHP on the dyno, and I believe with a ported head would be close to 80. Can you post the dyno printout?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2016, 08:11:06 pm »
Did you verify cam timing??
No, not yet. Hopefully i will whitin a week

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2016, 08:12:01 pm »
50 RWHP is less than a stock 750? My 836 with a stock un-ported K1 head and Weber carbs with 30mm chokes put out 70 RWHP on the dyno, and I believe with a ported head would be close to 80. Can you post the dyno printout?
I will try to get a printout ;)

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,452
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2016, 11:59:34 pm »
My 836 with ported head, 34mm in valves same cam and carbs as you gave 80rwhp.
Jets: Main 135 (150), pilot 30 (27.5), needles 4:th (as std), fuel screws 1.5 turns out.  KN pod filters and rather open 4-1.
main 150 might be for vel stacks

Changed main to 130 with 4-4 without diffusers. This is too lean.

Ignition might be retarded which make engine powerless. I heard pinging from low so I retarded ignition and lost the pinging AND power. Too lean carbs got richer mixture (pilot) and correct ignition woke up the power.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 12:01:10 am by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2016, 12:51:09 am »
PeWe I'm glad you wrote - We tried to retard the ignition and it didnt got better. I can see i wrote 137,5 main, but that was wrong we ended up with 132,5 but he still think it's too rich


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2016, 01:02:49 am »
My 836 with ported head, 34mm in valves same cam and carbs as you gave 80rwhp.
Jets: Main 135 (150), pilot 30 (27.5), needles 4:th (as std), fuel screws 1.5 turns out.  KN pod filters and rather open 4-1.
main 150 might be for vel stacks

Changed main to 130 with 4-4 without diffusers. This is too lean.

Ignition might be retarded which make engine powerless. I heard pinging from low so I retarded ignition and lost the pinging AND power. Too lean carbs got richer mixture (pilot) and correct ignition woke up the power.
What kind of pistons do you run?

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,452
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 01:52:39 am »
I runned old RC 836 that have a dome that fits the head with widened chamber. Old style to open chambers and have pistons with wider domes.

- Cam timing correct? I timed my SS-1 cam IN: 22/55, EX: 56/24 @ 1mm lift and 0 lift (measured total lift was 9.18mm IN and EX). I tightened the valve adjuster screw until the valve started to lift (needle moved 0.01-0.02 mm) to remove all play.
- Really too rich with higher throttle lift?
- You have pods?
- Do you have an A/F measurement when running the Dyno? My dyno chart has it when a sensor was sticked into the exhaust. Measured at WOT.
I had 132.5 main when that dyno was done. I changed cam to RC295 copy and 135 gave more torque when twisting throttle on 5:th gear from 80-90km/h.

I reduced the acc pump stroke later on, to min setting. I checked the floats before and reduced carb 1-2. I saw this summer that cyl 1-2 ran extra lean close to damage and $$$$.
I have purchased 3 more clear tube tube tools (VM29 tools) so I can check all 4 at the same time. Wego III Air/fuel sensor kit is under shipping, here next week. I'll check all cylinders one by one next year. Sensor in a sniffer pipe to be mounted into the exhaust. Measure during normal driving, not only WOT. It will cost a lot if it runs too lean at 100-120km/h and pistons will melt. The throttles are not much opened at that range.

I secured the carbs in frame when it's not good have them hanging and bouncing up-down in carb boots only. Thick strap and rubber hose against frame secure the rack
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 01:56:28 am by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,541
  • Big ideas....
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2016, 06:53:23 am »
I'd do a quick leak down test to make sure everything is sealing well (valves & rings)
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,724
  • Ex Honda Service Manager, Cert. Honda Tech - Racer
    • BentON Racing
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2016, 07:43:55 am »
I'm running 137.5-142 mains, RS34's,  1080 kit, hi compression,  327 cam ,ported head, etc, @ least 110hp. You are too rich my .02, but you gotta check all the other things mentioned,  G'luck,  Bill
BentON Racing Website
OEM Parts | Service | Custom Builds
BentON Racing Facebook
Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
______________________________________
See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2016, 09:18:23 am »
"leak down" ?
I have done a compressiontest a it was between 9 and 10

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

  • This MuthaF'er is getting to be a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,890
  • Bought her new 4/75
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2016, 09:54:52 am »
Keep in mind your main jets are mainly for WOT, not mid-range. Where do you have your mid-range needles set?

What is your elevation? What type of air cleaner set up? What exhaust? Stock size valves? 

I'm running 137.5-142 mains, RS34's,  1080 kit, hi compression,  327 cam ,ported head, etc, @ least 110hp. You are too rich my .02, but you gotta check all the other things mentioned,  G'luck,  Bill
     +1000 Try 120 mains. Not sure about the mid-range circuit of those carbs?? All else fails put the stock carbs back on.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline turboguzzi

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,080
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2016, 10:19:49 am »
before going round and round (easy to chase your own tail) why dont you post the graph?, lots can be learned form it.

my money is on ignition issues and the fact that it runs doesnt mean you have a fully healthy one, it can make huge difference. not only timing/advance, could be actually weak spark, wrong gaps or wires,
the odd main jetting you are running doesnt make much sense to me, another pointer at ign.   


Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2016, 02:04:02 pm »
Thanks guys!  You have all been very helpful, lots of good info.
Did a quick check on timing, something is not right. I'm pulling the engine out later this week and do a more precise timing.
Sorry for not posting the graph but i have to download a program before I can put it up. I will keep you posted when the engine is up and running again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,541
  • Big ideas....
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2016, 02:12:22 pm »
"leak down" ?
I have done a compressiontest a it was between 9 and 10
Yes .....a "leakdown test". You pressurize the a cylinder with a known psi and watch another guage to see how well the cylinder is holding the air pressure, You can hear if air is leaking past the valves or rings. A compression test is good but I have no ides what you mean by it being between 9 and 10. What pressure did you read?  180 lbs, 200lbs etc for each cylinder?
 Here is a leak down tool
  http://racetoolz.com/
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 02:17:31 pm by MRieck »
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2016, 03:47:41 pm »
Thanks Mike
the tool i used for messuring is not a precise tool, just giving me a compression reading on each cylinder.
I can see this leak down tool is very helpful.
I'm almost sure now, my timing is not correct, almost 10 degree off on a quick messure.
Have to work on that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2016, 04:57:17 pm »
Where are you measuring the 10 degree error, at the cam? There are 34 teeth on the cam sprocket, so 10.588 degrees per tooth.
Does your compression tester read in Bar? One Bar equals about 14.5 PSI, so 10 Bar is 145 PSI. Cam timing will also affect cranking compression, so verify that first.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,541
  • Big ideas....
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2016, 07:34:59 pm »
Thanks Mike
the tool i used for messuring is not a precise tool, just giving me a compression reading on each cylinder.
I can see this leak down tool is very helpful.
I'm almost sure now, my timing is not correct, almost 10 degree off on a quick messure.
Have to work on that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes....bad cam timing will have a very bad effect on performance. I know through past experience. We all need experience to become better. ;) ;D
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2016, 01:26:47 am »
Where are you measuring the 10 degree error, at the cam? There are 34 teeth on the cam sprocket, so 10.588 degrees per tooth.
Does your compression tester read in Bar? One Bar equals about 14.5 PSI, so 10 Bar is 145 PSI. Cam timing will also affect cranking compression, so verify that first.
Had a degree wheel on. Actually I don't know about the compression tool, have to take a look. Just read the scale

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2016, 01:58:32 am »
Thanks Mike
the tool i used for messuring is not a precise tool, just giving me a compression reading on each cylinder.
I can see this leak down tool is very helpful.
I'm almost sure now, my timing is not correct, almost 10 degree off on a quick messure.
Have to work on that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes....bad cam timing will have a very bad effect on performance. I know through past experience. We all need experience to become better. ;) ;D
exactly! First engine build, but what a journey

Offline SunLar

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2016, 04:18:47 am »
I runned old RC 836 that have a dome that fits the head with widened chamber. Old style to open chambers and have pistons with wider domes.

- Cam timing correct? I timed my SS-1 cam IN: 22/55, EX: 56/24 @ 1mm lift and 0 lift (measured total lift was 9.18mm IN and EX). I tightened the valve adjuster screw until the valve started to lift (needle moved 0.01-0.02 mm) to remove all play.
- Really too rich with higher throttle lift?
- You have pods?
- Do you have an A/F measurement when running the Dyno? My dyno chart has it when a sensor was sticked into the exhaust. Measured at WOT.
I had 132.5 main when that dyno was done. I changed cam to RC295 copy and 135 gave more torque when twisting throttle on 5:th gear from 80-90km/h.

I reduced the acc pump stroke later on, to min setting. I checked the floats before and reduced carb 1-2. I saw this summer that cyl 1-2 ran extra lean close to damage and $$$$.


I have purchased 3 more clear tube tube tools (VM29 tools) so I can check all 4 at the same time. Wego III Air/fuel sensor kit is under shipping, here next week. I'll check all cylinders one by one next year. Sensor in a sniffer pipe to be mounted into the exhaust. Measure during normal driving, not only WOT. It will cost a lot if it runs too lean at 100-120km/h and pistons will melt. The throttles are not much opened at that range.

I secured the carbs in frame when it's not good have them hanging and bouncing up-down in carb boots only. Thick strap and rubber hose against frame secure the rack

Is your cam timing according to Action Fours specification chart that you previous sent to me?

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,452
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Missing horsepower
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2016, 03:08:19 am »
I runned old RC 836 that have a dome that fits the head with widened chamber. Old style to open chambers and have pistons with wider domes.

- Cam timing correct? I timed my SS-1 cam IN: 22/55, EX: 56/24 @ 1mm lift and 0 lift (measured total lift was 9.18mm IN and EX). I tightened the valve adjuster screw until the valve started to lift (needle moved 0.01-0.02 mm) to remove all play.
- Really too rich with higher throttle lift?
- You have pods?
- Do you have an A/F measurement when running the Dyno? My dyno chart has it when a sensor was sticked into the exhaust. Measured at WOT.
I had 132.5 main when that dyno was done. I changed cam to RC295 copy and 135 gave more torque when twisting throttle on 5:th gear from 80-90km/h.

I reduced the acc pump stroke later on, to min setting. I checked the floats before and reduced carb 1-2. I saw this summer that cyl 1-2 ran extra lean close to damage and $$$$.


I have purchased 3 more clear tube tube tools (VM29 tools) so I can check all 4 at the same time. Wego III Air/fuel sensor kit is under shipping, here next week. I'll check all cylinders one by one next year. Sensor in a sniffer pipe to be mounted into the exhaust. Measure during normal driving, not only WOT. It will cost a lot if it runs too lean at 100-120km/h and pistons will melt. The throttles are not much opened at that range.

I secured the carbs in frame when it's not good have them hanging and bouncing up-down in carb boots only. Thick strap and rubber hose against frame secure the rack

Is your cam timing according to Action Fours specification chart that you previous sent to me?
Action fours numbers  are not real when timing the cam. (total lift was correct, even a little bit more. 0.361, spec .360"
28/62, 62/28 probably total lift. When valve start to lift and when closed completely
I  measured at 1mm lift (0.04"). So cam timed as specified with almost "mirrored" open/close times, same lobe centers. Advance or retartard a few degrees possible.  Maybe 2-3 degrees advanced to gett more from low, but less at 9000-9500 rpm
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 05:52:12 am by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967