Author Topic: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot  (Read 20591 times)

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Offline lash

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2017, 05:31:03 PM »
So to add some more comfusion, I set my floats to 26mm and then I am supposed to confirm levels with clear tube. How high is the fuel supposed to be in the tube or how far down from the top of the bowl lip?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2017, 07:44:16 PM »
Sorry to be turning the thread into an 'oil thread' about carbs...  :/

The 657a carbs all came originally with brass floats, and one float was set at 24-25mm, the other 1mm higher (25-26mm). The difference of 1mm overall was based on which adjuster slot the carbs have: the 'a' carbs that came with the [mostly] "old factory" bikes have a tiny sliver of an edge INSIDE the bowl area of the gasket, and this is the reference edge for the float height at 24 & 25mm. The ones with the 'notch' on only the OUTSIDE edge of the bowl area were the ones where the reference was changed to 26mm (both floats) and these usually had plastic floats beginning in late 1972, about the same time the K2 engine started having the dual-row output shaft bearing for the final drive. This was actually the beginning of the K3: in these bikes the mainjet kept being switched back and forth between 110 and 105 size, like there was some confusion going on. But, all the plastic-float carbs were always set at 26mm both floats. The purpose was sometimes stated as being "to prevent the fuel from leaking while parked" (on the sidestand with the petcock ON, presumably). Also at about this time, the starting point of the spark advancers were made about 2 degrees more advanced than the earlier versions, although sometimes they seemed to be mixed together: on those bikes, the plugs often fouled and we had to figure out which part of the tuning had to be "fixed" to stop it. In particular, if the bike had the old advancer with less initial advance, and the brass floats set at 25 & 26mm, the bikes had the #110 mainjet. If the bike had the 7-degree initial advancer instead, with plastic floats at 26mm and #110 jets, it fouled plugs unless either the jet was changed to #105 or the needles were dropped to the middle notch. If the bike had the 5 degree advancer and #105 jets and plastic floats at 26mm, it tended to stumble (like yours) just off idle: oddly, the Honda rep's advice then was to raise the idle to 1200 RPM (dumb...) to mask it: drilling the emulsifier tubes out to .039" or changing the mainjet to #110 usually worked better. If the advancer was 7 degrees and the jet was #105 already, but it stumbled: I would slow the timing down to 5 degrees at idle and slightly bend out the stopping "ears" of the advancer so it was like the early ones. Then the flat spot was gone and the plugs stayed cleaner.

There's probably a dozen other tricks out there for this sort of thing: those were the ones in my bag o' tricks of that era. The stumble comes from one of 2 things, and you need to figure out which it is: if it is too rich, it's because the air velocity is too slow when you are trying to accelerate, and it will 'pop' during long downhill decels as a clue. If it is too lean, it will not 'pop'. That's the first clue (presuming you don't have a leaking valve somewhere, then all bets are off on this diagnosis method). Next is the sync: if one carb is higher vacuum than the previous one in the firing order, it will almost always stumble unless you happen to 'crack' it at the exact moment that is NOT firing: sync the carbs close (not perfect) to solve this one, and make sure they are NOT all dead-even, especially if using the liquid-tube type balancers. One carb in the set must be off from all the others by a tiny bit in my experience, or cracking the throttle at anything less than 1/4 throttle will always make it momentarily 'suck air', we used to call it: this was death on the racetrack or slow freeway traffic. I set one carb, usually #3, about 0.1-0.15 increment lower vacuum than the others.

It may seem painful, but the "fix" in the end is far more than the sum of the parts: when you hit it on the nail, these engines change character, becoming much stronger at the pullaway or when dropping a gear to pass. I have only let 2 other people in this life drive my bike, both who had [newer and younger] 750s than mine: both guys wanted to know "what size cam or big-bore" I had installed (neither) and one wanted to know "how much to buy it" (can't...) in place of his own, or a trade-plus (nope...). I keep mine on that 'edge' all the time, it's my secret joyride!  ;)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline PeWe

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2017, 12:41:33 PM »
Hondaman, your detailed descriptions about how things work and all small details that differ between different models are really good information that a few people has knowledge or experience of. 
I guess that Honda R&D does not know ;)

Oil threads....I love them as long as its about good or bad experience of oil to our bikes. Knowledge that others including me will have use of. :) :)
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline flybox1

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2017, 12:49:37 PM »
how far down from the top of the bowl lip?
3mm
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline markreimer

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2017, 03:00:08 PM »
As always I appreciate your detailed reply HondaMan! Very interesting bit about leaving one carb a hair off from the rest. I was theorizing that a slightly out of sync carb could be the cause of my stumble at a throttle position of just off 'closed', as any variance would be magnified at that point. IE: if one throttle body is 0.5mm off from the rest, when you open the throttle by 1mm, that body would be either open half as much as the rest, or almost twice as much as the rest (depending if it was out + or - 0.5mm.) Make sense? I'd imagine the cylidner in question would be fighting the rest and could result in a stumble of sorts. Does that idea hold water? I've got a set of vacuum gauges so I'll check tomorrow.

Overall I've been narrowing in on my stumble. I'd say my bike is running at about 95% from perfect. If I only rode highways I'd be happy, but much of my riding is slow stop and go in the city, so I need this stumble solved. Opening up the IMS screws another 1/8 turn helped, and I'm sitting at just above 1 and 3/8s out. My timing is dead on at idle and full advance.

One question - how do you identify which advance mechanism you have? My situation falls into one of the following in your quote:

"If the bike had the 5 degree advancer and #105 jets and plastic floats at 26mm, it tended to stumble (like yours) just off idle: oddly, the Honda rep's advice then was to raise the idle to 1200 RPM (dumb...) to mask it: drilling the emulsifier tubes out to .039" or changing the mainjet to #110 usually worked better. If the advancer was 7 degrees and the jet was #105 already, but it stumbled: I would slow the timing down to 5 degrees at idle and slightly bend out the stopping "ears" of the advancer so it was like the early ones. Then the flat spot was gone and the plugs stayed cleaner."

I have floats at 26mm, 40 pilot, 105 mains, clip in 4th from blunt/top.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 03:01:49 PM by markreimer »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2017, 03:43:35 PM »
As always I appreciate your detailed reply HondaMan! Very interesting bit about leaving one carb a hair off from the rest. I was theorizing that a slightly out of sync carb could be the cause of my stumble at a throttle position of just off 'closed', as any variance would be magnified at that point. IE: if one throttle body is 0.5mm off from the rest, when you open the throttle by 1mm, that body would be either open half as much as the rest, or almost twice as much as the rest (depending if it was out + or - 0.5mm.) Make sense? I'd imagine the cylidner in question would be fighting the rest and could result in a stumble of sorts. Does that idea hold water? I've got a set of vacuum gauges so I'll check tomorrow.

Overall I've been narrowing in on my stumble. I'd say my bike is running at about 95% from perfect. If I only rode highways I'd be happy, but much of my riding is slow stop and go in the city, so I need this stumble solved. Opening up the IMS screws another 1/8 turn helped, and I'm sitting at just above 1 and 3/8s out. My timing is dead on at idle and full advance.

One question - how do you identify which advance mechanism you have? My situation falls into one of the following in your quote:

"If the bike had the 5 degree advancer and #105 jets and plastic floats at 26mm, it tended to stumble (like yours) just off idle: oddly, the Honda rep's advice then was to raise the idle to 1200 RPM (dumb...) to mask it: drilling the emulsifier tubes out to .039" or changing the mainjet to #110 usually worked better. If the advancer was 7 degrees and the jet was #105 already, but it stumbled: I would slow the timing down to 5 degrees at idle and slightly bend out the stopping "ears" of the advancer so it was like the early ones. Then the flat spot was gone and the plugs stayed cleaner."

I have floats at 26mm, 40 pilot, 105 mains, clip in 4th from blunt/top.

If it were here at this point, I'd do this as a diagnostic:
get some genuine Kehin #110 mainjets (or maybe #108) and swap them in (easy to do) with the setting you now have. Then, see if turn the air screws a little more inward makes it idle more steadily: it should be just one the lean side of OK at about 900-1000 RPM idle, getting richer as the throttle starts to crack open. If this fixes it: then go back to the #105 jets (or even #108 if you use #110 for the test) and raise the float levels 1mm. Reason for this: if you leave the #110 in it, the plugs will start getting dark early, around 2500-3000 RPM range (which is why Honda dropped the needles). A hidden thing to look for: I have some carbs in my own bike with worn needle jets, just form the 150,000 miles on them: I rotated them 180 degrees to make the blend from idle-to-startup flatten out. It was going quite rich below 1200 RPM from these holes being too big, and turning them around exposed the "new" side with less clearance toward the engine, leaning them back out. Someday I'll change them...but before I did that, I went too far with "clipping the springs" to slow the spark advancer even more than it had been the previous 80k miles, so after I fixed the problem properly, it has a late-advance stumble now (I have new springs, need some time...). On the K5-6 engine, Honda REALLY softened these springs as they leaned out the falling side of the intake cam lobes to make the then-wanted 50 MPG fuel consumption: is your bike possibly in this era? This will cause a lean stumble just off idle if the springs are "normal" stiffness. To solve that one, I might then use the #105 jets, raise the needles to bottom (#5) notch, and pull the screws back to 7/8-1 turn range.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline KeithB

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2017, 01:59:17 PM »
Update...
Installed 35 pilot jets (from 40)and 126 mains (from 120)
Very carefully set floats to 26mm
Checked all needles were set the same.
"air" screws 1.25 turns out.
Vacuum balanced carbs
Confirmed timing with strobe

Starts easily, idles fine and pulls away from a stop with no hesitation.
Pulls great through throttle range. (A bit of backfire on decel ).
Plugs look good.
Seems like the problem is solved.
Nanahan Man

Offline markreimer

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2017, 02:12:53 PM »
awesome!! Congratulations.

I haven't made much progress on mine, only because I've been busy riding not tuning. But I did notice after a long ride where I spent most of my time in the 1/4 throttle range that the tip of my exhaust was very sooty. I have some 35 pilot jets, I'll try what you did and see how that works. If not, I'm dropping the needle a notch.

Offline KeithB

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2017, 09:38:32 AM »
Still more road testing needed but at least I'm on the right track.
Nanahan Man

Offline flybox1

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2017, 09:40:17 AM »
Still more road testing needed but at least I'm on the right track.
Good to hear.  Anything in particular you're trying to tune out?
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline KeithB

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2017, 08:35:12 AM »
See post title.
Nanahan Man

Offline flybox1

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2017, 06:54:59 AM »
 ::)

yes....but...
Update...

Starts easily, idles fine and pulls away from a stop with no hesitation.
Pulls great through throttle range. (A bit of backfire on decel ).
Plugs look good.
Seems like the problem is solved.


.....thought you were dealing with a new issue  ::)
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline KeithB

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2017, 04:11:47 AM »
No new issue...just updating on results as I fiddle with the carbs.
There was another person following along with a similar problem.
Nanahan Man

Offline markreimer

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2017, 08:32:44 AM »
Figured I'd update my results on this common CB750 issue for those who find this thread down the road.

I ended up raising my needle clip one notch (so I raised the clip from the 4th to the 3rd/middle position, resulting in the needling dropping and leaning out the mixture). My carbs now have a 40 pilot, 105 main, with needle in the middle clip. All genuine Keihin jets.

My airbox is a K&N with Hondaman's airbox mod, which basically is drilling about a dozen 1/4" holes around the airbox intake to increase breathing. Exhaust is a Hindle 4-2-1 with a pretty open design

My stumble is now completely gone. I was getting an off idle stumble, but also a consistent gurgling sensation when cruising just off idle. Imagine riding at about 25-35mph in the city. Your throttle position is only open a little past closed. My bike sounded really garbled, even though I was running stock jetting with the mixture screws set to the stock 1 1/8 turns out, and a stock Honda air filter with unmodified airbox at the time. Basically a fully stock K4, except the pipe. At highway speeds with a more open throttle position I had no issues, but my pipe was getting sooty around the tip, and my highway mileage was around 30-32mpg.

The bike sounds smooth now, and still pulls hard up to 100mph. I might try jumping up the main jet to 110, as that was the stock jetting for earlier K4s - 40 pilot, 110 main, middle clip. Reason being that I don't feel much change in power between 3/4 open and fully open throttle position. It doesn't fall flat like when it's overly lean, just kinda feels the same. I've read this is a characteristic of these carbs as they 'run out of the ability to mix additional fuel' because the fuel level drops to the bottom of the emulsifier or something, but worth a try anyway.

I went on a 40 mile ride and my MPG increased by 3. The ride was a mix of city and hard/fast highway, and I ended up at 35mpg. I'm thinking longer highway cruising will bring that up to 38-40mpg. Before I'd usually get around 30 for a ride like this. Highest I ever hit before was 35mpg on a long highway ride.

PROBLEM:
The only issue I have now is some minor popping at idle. It's not a loud bang like when you are really lean and engine brake. Just a subtle blubber. I set the screws down to 7/8 turns or a hair less and the idle popping goes away, but the engine idles rougher. It drops down every few seconds and then picks back up. If I open the screws up further, the idle stays at a steady RPM, but it pops a bit. So I'm hunting for that sweet spot I guess.

Hope this helps people down the road!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 09:29:06 AM by markreimer »

Offline flybox1

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2017, 09:45:12 AM »
What did your plugs look like after your 35mpg ride?

PROBLEM ^^^ IIWM, vac sync it spot on, then an idle plug chop to get the IMS dialed in...and call it good.

If youre still getting that popping on idle/decel....tape off one airbox mod hole at a time and re-test ride.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline markreimer

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2017, 09:50:27 AM »
Forgot to mention that I did a vacuum sync right after I dropped the needle, it's spot on. I didn't change the plugs after, so no real point in a chop till I get a new pair. Great suggestion though! I think I'll put a fan in front and slowly rotate those screws till I get the best idle. Then do an idle chop.

One correction - I'm not getting any popping on decel at all. Sounds great! I was only getting popping when it idled, with the screws set to factory spec 1 1/8. Turning the screws in got ride of the idle pops but made the idle drop for a second every 5-10 seconds. No impact to decel performance.

Offline flybox1

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2017, 09:58:52 AM »
Do the plug chop first, and THEN adjust IMS as needed for proper color.
Unless you've got a bionic ear, its impossible to hear proper air/fuel ratios  ;D
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2017, 10:00:24 AM »
Figured I'd update my results on this common CB750 issue for those who find this thread down the road.

I ended up raising my needle clip one notch (so I raised the clip from the 4th to the 3rd/middle position, resulting in the needling dropping and leaning out the mixture). My carbs now have a 40 pilot, 105 main, with needle in the middle clip. All genuine Keihin jets.

My airbox is a K&N with Hondaman's airbox mod, which basically is drilling about a dozen 1/4" holes around the airbox intake to increase breathing. Exhaust is a Hindle 4-2-1 with a pretty open design

My stumble is now completely gone. I was getting an off idle stumble, but also a consistent gurgling sensation when cruising just off idle. Imagine riding at about 25-35mph in the city. Your throttle position is only open a little past closed. My bike sounded really garbled, even though I was running stock jetting with the mixture screws set to the stock 1 1/8 turns out, and a stock Honda air filter with unmodified airbox at the time. Basically a fully stock K4, except the pipe. At highway speeds with a more open throttle position I had no issues, but my pipe was getting sooty around the tip, and my highway mileage was around 30-32mpg.

The bike sounds smooth now, and still pulls hard up to 100mph. I might try jumping up the main jet to 110, as that was the stock jetting for earlier K4s - 40 pilot, 110 main, middle clip. Reason being that I don't feel much change in power between 3/4 open and fully open throttle position. It doesn't fall flat like when it's overly lean, just kinda feels the same. I've read this is a characteristic of these carbs as they 'run out of the ability to mix additional fuel' because the fuel level drops to the bottom of the emulsifier or something, but worth a try anyway.

I went on a 40 mile ride and my MPG increased by 3. The ride was a mix of city and hard/fast highway, and I ended up at 35mpg. I'm thinking longer highway cruising will bring that up to 38-40mpg. Before I'd usually get around 30 for a ride like this. Highest I ever hit before was 35mpg on a long highway ride.

PROBLEM:
The only issue I have now is some minor popping at idle. It's not a loud bang like when you are really lean and engine brake. Just a subtle blubber. I set the screws down to 7/8 turns or a hair less and the idle popping goes away, but the engine idles rougher. It drops down every few seconds and then picks back up. If I open the screws up further, the idle stays at a steady RPM, but it pops a bit. So I'm hunting for that sweet spot I guess.

Hope this helps people down the road!

This one sounds like one of two (or maybe both?) things is happening:
The variable idle suggests the fuel drain rate is just slightly hydraulically 'locking' momentarily when one of the float bowls is low. I only mentioned it about 1/2 page in my book (end of Carbs chapter, last 2 pages) because it only usually happens when the fuel lines from the dual-petcock tanks become slightly too long to the carbs. This makes a slight 'air dam' or 'bubble' in the top of any bend in the fuel line, usually the one furthest from the petcock, and at low-feed rates like idle, this can lower the fuel level in the bowls about 2mm before it gets enough head (or 'suction') to move the fuel past this bubble. Clear fuel lines, while a poor choice in the long term (no one makes them in 5.5mm), show this situation pretty well. This causes momentarily 'slow-idle blips' as I used to call it, and can make for popping during long decel runs, like down a mountainside.

The other culprit can be calcification in the air holes of the idle jet's emulsifier. These are impossible for older guys like me to see now, but you can feel them with a pointy tool like a thick needle. I use just such a gizmo to push the crud into the tube, then clean the tube out. I find this in 90% or more of the carbs I clean, even though they were previously "ultrasonically" cleaned. This, and the larger holes in the mainjet emulsifier tubes, are most frequently affected now because of the switch from older MTBE fuels to the newer ethanol-laced fuels: the MTBE etched the once-sharp (rounded would be better, BTW) edges of these little holes and made places for water in ethanol to corrode them and start the calcification process that slowly narrows them. So, when sticking the needle thru the holes, wiggle the outer end of the needle in a large circle to nudge back the sharp (or etched) edges of the emulsifier holes, rounding them on both inside-outside edges, this prevents the bubbles that form during operation from having something to cling to and speeds up their departure into the fuel stream, making for a more even fuel mix - and a smoother idle.

The phenomenon of "no further speed response past 3/4 throttle" is common after the K0 version of the round-top carbs. This situation was common in all Hondas of the era, except for the CB/CL72 and some of the CB/CL77 bikes with the 3-jet "power jet" carbs. These other bikes had a third jet that fed the upper area of the venturi when the throttle passed the 3/4 mark, because the airflow over the lower needle jet does not change much after passing the wasp-waist middle of the throat opening. This wasp-waist was introduced in the late K0 carbs to try to extend the throttle response with a leaner mixture, as the K0 bikes were REALLY hard on sparkplugs if not ridden hard. Those bikes had 120 mainjets and small emulsifier holes to make the upper 1/3 throttle feel more responsive, but it made the lower 1/2 throttle very wet in the process. For a VERY brief while, some K3 carbs came with a little lifting collar on the intake side of the needle's jet: these were like the ones seen in Mikunis for 2-stroke engines, which suffered the same flow issues. They vanished very quickly and are seldom even seen anymore: I don't know if they were recalled or something, but I haven't seen one since 1973, and then only on a bike or two that came thru Illinois (my shop) in that summer, on tours to somewhere else. They were Keihin carbs, though, and looked otherwise normal. The bikes were pure stock (Vetters on both), so I don't think the owners were super-techs or anything like that. I happened to be changing air filters on both of those bikes (at different times of that year) when I noticed the different needle jets. Overall, I suspect this was why no one really griped about the long throttle roll on this bike's dual-cable carbs: on the K0 you can quickly pull the throttle to 100% opening with the 1-cable design, but this became impossible on the "Grand Prix" pull-push throttle, which was designed to prevent lawsuits from the #4 carb's cable hanging the throttle partway open in the early bikes, following a hard-right handlebar turn. On the dual-cable system, the full engine/carb power is felt at just about the point where the carbs no longer change mixture rate, or just above 3/4 throttle. ;)

BTW: this is where the main difference is felt in the CR29 cabs: they mix all the way up to 90% throttle because of the very different (and expensive) design. It's not the 1mm bigger throat, but the jetting design difference, that makes this change happen. In fact, they strongly resemble (...drum roll...) the CL72 carbs, bolted to a single flange.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline markreimer

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2017, 10:02:56 AM »
True, I can't hear fuel ratios, but I can hear the idle speed change with adjustment of the screw. That's how the screws are set on all my other bikes. It's a lot easier on a single cylinder as you can clearly hear when the idle is highest, but still possible on these fours. I set it to the factory setting, then start turning them in... if the idle drops, I'm going the wrong way. If it goes up, I continue until no more change occurs. If I'm at least .5 turn out, I'll leave it. If I'm past that, I need to re-jet. Same approach for turning them out.

I figured I'd try that, and then see what the plugs say. Is there a reason this approach might be flawed?

Offline markreimer

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2017, 10:08:30 AM »
Thanks for your input Hondaman!

A few things to address your points:

Fuel routing - very interesting suggestion. I'm using black Honda 5.5mm tube, routed through the carb rack as per stock setting, with no in-line fuel filters. When I was doing my carb sync with the fuel tank off to the side, using long clear tubing, I did notice the fuel didn't like to flow freely the moment I opened the petcock. it's a new-ish petcock, maybe 3 years old, and fuel consistently pours out the carbs if I open the bowl drains, but maybe that's something I need to investigate a bit more closely. I could put some clear tubing on there for the time being for easy inspection.

Emulsifiers - this I can rule out, as i removed them and verified they were clean and not clogged. My eyesight is still quite good and I'm entirely positive they are clean enough to eat off.

3/4 throttle - hey that's interesting, so I'm basically chasing my tail trying to find more power in the final 1/4 of the throttle pull then? Good to know!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 10:10:15 AM by markreimer »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2017, 07:37:40 PM »
Thanks for your input Hondaman!

A few things to address your points:

Fuel routing - very interesting suggestion. I'm using black Honda 5.5mm tube, routed through the carb rack as per stock setting, with no in-line fuel filters. When I was doing my carb sync with the fuel tank off to the side, using long clear tubing, I did notice the fuel didn't like to flow freely the moment I opened the petcock. it's a new-ish petcock, maybe 3 years old, and fuel consistently pours out the carbs if I open the bowl drains, but maybe that's something I need to investigate a bit more closely. I could put some clear tubing on there for the time being for easy inspection.

Emulsifiers - this I can rule out, as i removed them and verified they were clean and not clogged. My eyesight is still quite good and I'm entirely positive they are clean enough to eat off.

3/4 throttle - hey that's interesting, so I'm basically chasing my tail trying to find more power in the final 1/4 of the throttle pull then? Good to know!

On the 750 before the mid-K3 there were 2 unequal-length 5mm fuel hoses from a dual-port petcock. These tended to prevent the dead-head problem, although they always fill the #3-#4 carbs slightly deeper than the other two, while running at 1/3 throttle or more. Roadracers finally figured this out...I accidentally 'fixed' it on my own K2 one day when I bolted the Vetter lowers on and took off 500 miles for a weekend ride: the bike was smoother by far, the MPG slightly less, and all 4 plugs were the same (but darker) color, which had never been normal: 1-2 were always slightly lighter when it was new. As we numbed our minds over this, it became apparent that the difference in airspeed across the bowl vents (tubes) was MUCH lower with the Lowers, which caused the bowls to deepen. Then one of my roadracer buddies came by and was talking about his new full fairing: sure enough, he ran short of gas in the race because his MPG went down and the plugs darkened, too (his first fairing). He had NO bowl vent tubes, having removed them: both of us installed longer ones, up to under the seat, and everything stabilized, with lighter plugs and better MPG. (My long ones got broken off in the 2006 engine pull, but I haven't run the Lowers since then yet, either. Need to do this over again, now that I am thinking about it...)

In the later K3 the 5mm hoses became 5.5mm instead (increasing the hydrostatic head slightly and making them easier to remove for valve settings), and in the late K4 the petcock became one spigot when Honda was trying to sell their new "50 MPG at 55 MPH" ads during America's gas shortage, which was partly how they got it there. This was when the imbalance problems began, with the left 2 carbs always running leaner.

When I custom-build (not "pure resto") these bikes, I take the single-outlet spigot hoses to 5.5mm tube, run it back to above the airbox, put the tee in between the 2-3 carbs, laying it in front of the airbox, then make SURE the hoses feeding the 2 sets of carbs are at least 1cm different length from each other. This puts a longer hydrostatic head on the little fuel tee (between the tank and tee) and pumps the fuel back-and-forth (left-right) with a very slight suction, which helps keep the fuel valves in the carbs 'dancing' better. With the modern float valves and their extra-stiff springs (compared to the old ones) this helps deepen the bowls while riding on Interstates where the bike is not being bounced around much. Then, when you snatch a lower gear and a handful, it immediately lights up. ;)

...but then, I'm starting to give away some of my intimate secrets... :o
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline markreimer

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2017, 09:30:29 AM »
Hmm interesting again... My K4 has the dual petcock design, not the single. I had a closer look at my fuel line routing and it does look like there is an ever so slight rise on both lines, so it's not truly all downhill from the petcock. I used to run the fuel line in a big 'U' shape, which worked well most of the time but often the last 1/4 tank wouldn't find its way to the carb, and the bike would act like it was hitting reserve before it actually was. Seems without the weight of a full tank, that routing just wasn't a good option.

Returning to stock Honda lines and routing, this problem went away and I can run the tank dry if I wanted. I can't remember if my idle popping popped up at the same time. I'll try trimming a few mm off at a time. I don't want to go too short as the lines tend to kink then, and fuel is restricted once again.

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Re: 72 CB750 stumble off idle when hot
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2017, 07:49:05 PM »
Hmm interesting again... My K4 has the dual petcock design, not the single. I had a closer look at my fuel line routing and it does look like there is an ever so slight rise on both lines, so it's not truly all downhill from the petcock. I used to run the fuel line in a big 'U' shape, which worked well most of the time but often the last 1/4 tank wouldn't find its way to the carb, and the bike would act like it was hitting reserve before it actually was. Seems without the weight of a full tank, that routing just wasn't a good option.

Returning to stock Honda lines and routing, this problem went away and I can run the tank dry if I wanted. I can't remember if my idle popping popped up at the same time. I'll try trimming a few mm off at a time. I don't want to go too short as the lines tend to kink then, and fuel is restricted once again.

That's the ticket. ;)
My line to the "far side" carbs is trimmed to the point just before kinking, when dry. When wet, the ethanol in the fuel here makes the lines softer and longer.

On some combinations of these bike's parts, it is possible to find one's self with no way to get level lines at all. On the 750F1, for example, some of the tanks have a petcock that points straight back to the rear. making it impossible to route the line as shown in Honda's manuals. Instead, these bikes came from the factory with the line going back from the petcock, around the top of the #1 carb, then turn inward to the tee, then to the other side. I might take a picture of one I just finished that looks exactly like this: the K6 also had this once in a while, while most of the K6 had a single spigot pointing down. This was one reason the K6 can have low top end speeds. The K4 came with 2-spigot petcocks, then the same petcock with only one spigot, then the shorter-bodied one, with one spigot. The dual versions worked best, and the early 1-spigot type can be modified into the 2-spigot type with a short threaded brass tube, drill, and small tap. ;)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).