Author Topic: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle  (Read 1783 times)

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Offline evinrude7

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quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« on: March 11, 2017, 07:19:39 PM »
trying to get my bike to idle well below 1,200, stop the bog down during lower rpm with more throttle, and keep whatever idle i choose with the idle screw to actually maintain after short periods of riding. 

i've been experiencing some backfire during deceleration.  i can't keep the idle steady and have to constantly adjust the set screw.  get some cold cylinders which i eventually get firing after float adjustment, shooting some starter fluid into the carb throat and cleaning what seems to be a sooty plug.  spark seems fine and all gaps are .026.

i am in the process of converting to stock air box from pods.  i have everything for the air box but decent boots which i will be ordering shortly.  so currently i've been running the pods.  in speaking with the PO today he thinks the jets were changed out for larger at some point.  i do have stock exhaust.  i've cleaned the carbs numerous times but have not paid special attention to orifices of the air screw type.  floats are set at 26 mm.  carbs have been synced according to this.  http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/bench_sync/bench_sync.html

here's a run down of the work i plan on doing.  can anyone suggest something i'm missing?

jet needle clip settings? fix those for stock air box
657A  floatheight26mm  main110  slow40  jn4 screw1out

clean all air passages in carb including air screw mixture holes. 

tappet valve clearance -again

static timing - again - pg 42 owners manual

install correct jets
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 07:32:50 PM »
Hey fellow Nashvillian !
Looks like your on the right track . There is no substitute for the stock airbox and filter, the bike will run much better ! It's very possible those 110 main jets have been drilled-out but are still stamped '110'. Good idea to get new ones. Your work list looks good, make sure there are no air leaks at the carb to head boots, that will cause a lean and backfiring condition too ... Good luck, report back later  ;) Jet needle clip goes in 4th. groove ( from the bottom )...btw.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 07:40:09 PM by Spanner 1 »
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 07:40:05 PM »
hey spanner.  didn't know you were local.  glad to have a sohc fan in the area.  on the air leaks - i have never checked with spray but i did recently soften my boots with some wintergreen and dot 3 treatment, of course heat,  i bought some wide clamps and those suckers are tight.  i'll do a spray test tomorrow morning.  thanks. 
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 07:40:43 PM »
I had drilled out pilot jets and it threw me for a loop for a while. If it helps, a jet that is 110 is 1.10mm. A jet that is 40 is .40mm and so on. If you can find wire that mics up to those numbers you can try sticking it in the hole and seeing if it's much looser.

Offline evinrude7

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 07:49:46 PM »
word dave.  i'm thinking about that and buying the right jets and throwing the current ones in the trash.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 08:04:57 PM »
My K1 ( avatar bike ) had pods, drag pipes and drilled out 120 main jets. I put a stock airbox and 4-into-4 pipes back on it and couldn't get it to run right at all. Thing was, I didn't know the mains were drilled, still said '120' on them. I asked a friend to bring some 110's he had so I could try them and when we put the 120's beside the 110's  ... yikes! the supposedly 120's were 2x times the size of the 110's.... got a set of actual 120's and all problems cured.
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 08:14:37 PM »
time for me to get the debit card out spanner. btw would mains effect idle? i'll probably get slow jets too. 
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 08:59:48 PM »
got it spanner.  thanks for the pseudo invite. 
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 10:18:03 PM »
The needle keeps the main jet effectively closed at idle, if the main jet is actually the correct diameter , so the idle jet/bleed is only in play. If the main jet is drilled out then all bets are off and the main may 'leak' fuel into the motor at idle.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 10:35:51 PM »
Cleanliness...it doesn't take much grit in these carbs to make them malfunction in the little ways you describe.

Take a look at the little emulsifier holes in the pilot jets and the mainjet "holder", make sure they are CLEAN. I use a sharp, pointy thing to make sure, and sometimes drill them out a couple thousandths (mainjet) if they are the holes of 0.033" size. With ethanol and unleaded gas, they should be at least .035" size in the larger 8 holes of the mainjet's emulsifier, which will mix better.

The backfire: this suggests the carbs are not balanced. If you don't have a set of vacuum gages around, try first to figure out which one is popping, then adjust that one's slide upward about 1/8 turn (of the 17mm nut) at a time until it stops popping on decel. This will get you pretty close.

In the 657A carbs, the ones made 1971-1972 January usually came with #110 Keihin jets. After that, they were #105 jets. The aftermarket jets we are getting in carb kits like Keyster or K&L are often size-marked "110" but are really closer to #103 or even #100 in some cases I have seen recently. You can get real Keihin jets at Honda or Jets-R-Us online.

Also: if the carbs were rebuilt with non-Honda float valves, the springs in the little float valves will be very stiff. This can result in low bowls levels when running, so I usually set these floats to 25mm instead, to keep the bowls a little "wetter"  during acceleration.

If you have a strobe timing light: make sure the timing is on the marks, and that it does not "jitter" back and forth, especially on the 2-3 points side. If it does, the points' advancer shaft has been bent (caused by turning the big nut CCW with sparklugs installed), and needs to be straightened to within 0.002". I show a picture of how to do this in my book, if you have that?
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Offline ekpent

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2017, 05:39:11 AM »
 Don't waste your time messing around with bad/fouled plugs as mentioned in your post if you have cold pipes. They may still spark outside of the bike but will not work under load. For a couple bucks pop a new soldier in the hole  ;)  That may help with the popping possibly and also make sure your valve tappets are set to spec and not too tight.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 07:53:36 AM by ekpent »

Offline evinrude7

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2017, 07:50:23 AM »
thanks hondaman and ekpent, i'll add that knowledge to the work plan. 
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: quest for smooth idle and no bog on more throttle
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2017, 11:44:43 AM »
hondaman, or anyone with the knowledge for that matter.  i have 657A carbs.  i'm looking on jets are us .com trying to find the correct jets.  can't seem to find which carbs are mine according to their list below.

KEIHIN CARB PARTS

CDKII exploded view parts
CDKII with accelerator pump exploded view parts
CR exploded view parts
FCR SINGLE exploded view parts
FCR SINGLE DUAL MULTI exploded view parts
FCR-MX exploded view parts
PB16
PB18
PC10A
PC18
PC20
PE exploded view parts
PJ exploded view parts
PWK 28 exploded view parts
PWK 33 exploded view parts
PWK 35 exploded view parts
PWK 36 exploded view parts
PWK 38 exploded view parts
PWK 39 exploded view parts
PWK 39 snowmobile exploded view parts snowmobile
PWK 41 exploded view parts

PWM 38 exploded view parts
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