Topic: Thoughts about points

[Gene]

I havent washed mine in over a year.. I think I am safe.

I have never washed any of my bikes with water. Engine degreaser where needed, dry wipe, metal polish, or paint polish. They ain't pretty show-bikes but I never screwed up a piece of equipment by washing either.

[HondaMan]

And I don't wash my my bike so I am safe!

...and it will STILL be under warranty!

[PeWe]

Here an important note about Electronic Ignition that can explain some bad experiences with EI.
Go electronic all the way, charging system included for a stable voltage. I doubt that the 69-78 have a stable charging.
https://www.dimecitycycles.com/charlie-s-place-electronic-ignition-system-honda-72-74-cb350f-75-77-cb400f-71-73-cb500f-74-78-cb550f-and-69-78-cb750.html

*All models manufactured before 1969 do not have a regulator as a stock feature of the charging system. While this does not matter with a points type ignition system, it is incompatible with the upgraded electronic ignition system. The electronic ignition system requires a steady regulated voltage to function properly. Bikes that do not have a voltage regulator will burn out the electronic system. Therefore, if you wish to use this system with your pre-1969 bike, it is mandatory that you upgrade the charging system.

*On models that do not have a regulator as a stock feature, you must purchase a single-unit regulator/rectifier (Type 1) to use this ignition.
Electronic ignitions are not compatible with non-regulated systems.

[HondaMan]

Here an important note about Electronic Ignition that can explain some bad experiences with EI.
Go electronic all the way, charging system included for a stable voltage. I doubt that the 69-78 have a stable charging.
https://www.dimecitycycles.com/charlie-s-place-electronic-ignition-system-honda-72-74-cb350f-75-77-cb400f-71-73-cb500f-74-78-cb550f-and-69-78-cb750.html

*All models manufactured before 1969 do not have a regulator as a stock feature of the charging system. While this does not matter with a points type ignition system, it is incompatible with the upgraded electronic ignition system. The electronic ignition system requires a steady regulated voltage to function properly. Bikes that do not have a voltage regulator will burn out the electronic system. Therefore, if you wish to use this system with your pre-1969 bike, it is mandatory that you upgrade the charging system.

*On models that do not have a regulator as a stock feature, you must purchase a single-unit regulator/rectifier (Type 1) to use this ignition.
Electronic ignitions are not compatible with non-regulated systems.

Here is another important note to go along with the above important note:
If you install a voltage-forcing regulator on a current-limited alternator system (as is found on all Hondas prior to 1979 except the CX500/650), there will be a price to pay for it, in terms of power generation. Either the peak voltage must be lowered to the point where the alternator can run cool-ly enough to survive, or else the alternator's life will be significantly shortened by the heat of being forced to raise the voltage to an arbitary value that someone 'wants', like 14.0 volts, to run a given accessory.

The reason for this is actually pretty simple: the alternators were made with lacquer-based insulation enamels that can withstand temperatures up to 200 degrees F. This is why the alternators on all these bikes are "dry", not oil-bath types: the oil can get hotter than that, so the alternators are set higher than the oil level, and in their own enclosure, out in the wind, to keep them cooled off. While they get a little bit of oil splash, they are not heated by immersion in the oil. If you then increase the current load in the alternator, it heats itself up, higher than the enclosure where it lives. The aging 200 degree lacquer won't appreciate this...

So, for my 2 cents' worth: if you upgrade to a "modern" voltage-forcing electronic regulator to support a new electronic ignition, consider also upgrading to a brand-new OEM alternator, which will now bear more modern epoxy-based insulation that can withstand up to 280 degrees F temperatures. Then it will be both higher voltage AND reliable long term, and not leave you sitting in the summer heat out in the boondocks, wondering if you have cell-phone coverage that can help you find a pickup truck with a ramp...

Or - just use my Transistor Ignition, which works from 6 to 24 volts, and doesn't care WHAT kind of alternator you have. That way, if you fill it up with water in the rain or carwash, you can just unplug it, plug the points back in, and ride home to wait until it dries back out.

[PeWe]

I have upgraded a Power supply I did not trust the 12V output (It had to have a certain load). I added a 12V regulator to ensure max 12V.
Something like this https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12766
Back then it was max 1A, now 1.5A. The ignition must need more than that. With a regulator added for the ignition only, it might work?
Strange that the electronics has no over voltage protection. 2-3 of these in parallel can do it?

[Terry in Australia]

An electronic ignition won't work in a CB750 because the alternator will fry? What a load of crap! I've ridden thousands of miles in rain, high temps, taken my bikes to the car wash and drenched them completely over the last 40 years, without one failure, but now I've learned that my bike was never suited to have an electronic ignition installed? This thread is becoming less honest than Donald Trumps's campaign promises! 

[AirCanuck]

An electronic ignition won't work in a CB750 because the alternator will fry? What a load of crap! I've ridden thousands of miles in rain, high temps, taken my bikes to the car wash and drenched them completely over the last 40 years, without one failure, but now I've learned that my bike was never suited to have an electronic ignition installed? This thread is becoming less honest than Donald Trumps's campaign promises! 

Wasn't his point more about voltage forcing regulators than electronic ignitions?

[HondaMan]

An electronic ignition won't work in a CB750 because the alternator will fry? What a load of crap! I've ridden thousands of miles in rain, high temps, taken my bikes to the car wash and drenched them completely over the last 40 years, without one failure, but now I've learned that my bike was never suited to have an electronic ignition installed? This thread is becoming less honest than Donald Trumps's campaign promises! 

Huh?
This was a discussion about an electronic REGULATOR, wasn't it? Not an electronic IGNITION.

[Terry in Australia]

Well it looked more like a sales pitch? "If you upgrade to a voltage forcing regulator to support a modern electronic ignition consider upgrading to a modern alternator, or, just buy one of my ignition amplifiers! (and don't get it wet.......)

[USMC5811]

Ditch them and install an electronic ignition, and never take that points cover off again.

+1!
Sorry guys, but after spending "more than anybody would wish on an enemy" nights roadside resetting points of my first car (NOT a 'Vette!) with a screwdriver, matchbook, while holding a flashlight between my teeth...if soldering the gap open worked, I'd do it. I went electronic and haven't looked back (yet).


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[Spanner 1]

Nothing to do with Honda SOHC4 ignitions... What ?

[USMC5811]

Nothing to do with Honda SOHC4 ignitions... What ?

*Reading between the lines*
"I hate points because of bad experiences, so, I switched my '78 CB750K to an electronic ignition - riding happily and trouble free ever since."


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[754]

 Some days I wonder why some  have had so much grief, from a simple pair of points?
 Yet some of us spend minimal time playing with them and getting great results,..
 Maybe it's the way they touch things ? Who really knows..

I will admit though.  350 Honda twins, now there is something that may require lots of fiddling.. and an ignition for them is way more than for the fours....same with cams..

[Deltarider]

I still don't know what was/is so special about a Maxi-Dwell set. If it was to improve dwell on a 6 and 8 cyl. engine, that before had only one set of points, I can see the advantage. For the rest...

[754]

4 things come to mind.
 Point pivot wears less, due to longer fulcrum arm.
 Solid state condensers.
 Built in timing light.
 Aluminum point plate.
 For North America, greater access to replacement points.

 Then there is the dwell issue..
 They look like this or very similar.

[PeWe]

4 things come to mind.
 Point pivot wears less, due to longer fulcrum arm.
 Solid state condensers.
 Built in timing light.
 Aluminum point plate.
 For North America, greater access to replacement points.

 Then there is the dwell issue..

Frank, you made me think MAXI
I really like this thread. Good technical discussions as it should be on a technical forum. Plus some hot tempered posts as can happen
My posts about voltage regulation was triggered by some experiences of burned Dyna-S. Maybe those bikes had a bad adjusted regulator causing higher voltage, no problem with the electronics?

[nuwonder]

I've always loved points. So simple and easy to maintenance, easy to repair if broken and they're not so spooky ghost-like wizardy like electronic ignition  Ok well i'm no electronics expert so I retain a certain amount of fear towards systems which basically are two coils and a box and you can't mess with 'em at all.

So all my bikes had points, until came a day I bought pretty rough looking 1980 Kawasaki Z1000 MK2, and this puppy had super-nice Boyer Micro-Digital system installed. I was like "oh boy! now I can really enjoy these digital ignitions and get rid of my old timer mindset of points being the best thing ever!"

Well, that Boyer melted down after two weeks of riding. Wasn't of course the Boyer's fault, but anyway. I'm restoring that bike and I have a replacement unit already for it but needless to say, I lost all my excitement for digital ignition systems 

[USMC5811]

Some days I wonder why some  have had so much grief, from a simple pair of points?
 Yet some of us spend minimal time playing with them and getting great results,..
 Maybe it's the way they touch things ? Who really knows..

I will admit though.  350 Honda twins, now there is something that may require lots of fiddling.. and an ignition for them is way more than for the fours....same with cams..

That's just "one of those things".
My father was a helo mechanic in the Army - two tours in Nam - and now a wood working genius, but when it comes to doing plumbing he'd rather sandpaper his eyes.
Not a question of ability, but tolerance and desire.


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[HondaMan]

Some days I wonder why some  have had so much grief, from a simple pair of points?
 Yet some of us spend minimal time playing with them and getting great results,..
 Maybe it's the way they touch things ? Who really knows..

I will admit though.  350 Honda twins, now there is something that may require lots of fiddling.. and an ignition for them is way more than for the fours....same with cams..

Yep, the Twins take a special bit of loving to make them work right, and for a long time: read the attached for the secrets...

Once this is done, my Ignition works perfectly on them, too.

[HondaMan]

My posts about voltage regulation was triggered by some experiences of burned Dyna-S. Maybe those bikes had a bad adjusted regulator causing higher voltage, no problem with the electronics?

In my humble pinion, the Dyna had issues due to overheating from circulation of air (or lack thereof) whilst installed against an air-cooled engine. If you review Bankerdanny’s travails while off to the reunion, he too had some issues with an electronic but when removing the points cover, it subsided. Makes me think the heat from the engine radiating into the ignition plate is causing their premature failures. Not so much an issue when installed in an auto, which is perhaps why this failure rate is not so prevalent in many cars.

This has actually been their 'bug' since their beginning. Speaking an an experienced electronics engineer who has designs that operate from -40 to +150 (C) degrees, and knowing electronic devices well, I did an analysis of the Dyna system in 2006, borrowing an accurate (aircraft grade) IR thermometer to read the temps of the points plate. It's posted somewhere here, but the SEARCH function makes it hard to find. What I discovered was: the Hall Effect Triggers (best that can be found, anywhere) have a maximum heat tolerance rating of 165 C, and the current must be derated 0.04 amp (1% of 4A) for every 5 degrees C above 100 C (212 F). With the temperature 'gun' I measured a high of 280+ degrees F (138 C) on the points baseplate on a 102 degree F day after a 15-minute ride in traffic, whipping off the points cover while the engine still idled. (The exhaust 'flowers' on the bike (my own K2) were a toasty 325+ F.)

So, the 4-amp-rated triggers that Dyna used at that time were only able to switch [4-[(280-212)*0.1]] = 3.46 amps.
If the bike had their 3-ohm coils, the triggers would be well in over their head. The OEM coils draw 2.5 A or so.

This was what killed both of my Dynas, and the Dyna III box that I once had, too.

[754]

Yeah it's the sitting in traffic not moving that gets things  really hot..

[PeWe]

The point condensers (capacitors) might live longer if placed in a cooler place?
I usually adjust ignition after a 20 minute ride. The point plate is really hot, too hot to touch without tools.

[TwoTired]

Here is another important note to go along with the above important note:
If you install a voltage-forcing regulator on a current-limited alternator system (as is found on all Hondas prior to 1979 except the CX500/650), there will be a price to pay for it, in terms of power generation. Either the peak voltage must be lowered to the point where the alternator can run cool-ly enough to survive, or else the alternator's life will be significantly shortened by the heat of being forced to raise the voltage to an arbitary value that someone 'wants', like 14.0 volts, to run a given accessory.

Can you explain why you believe the stock SOHC4 regulator is not a "forcing type"?

Honda Shop Manual says to adjust i the Vreg for 14.5V when @ 4000 RPM and above.

Surely the Alternator heating is more a function of current or wattage loads than just voltage per se.

Seems to me that if the alternator is rated for 156 or 210 watts continuous  (model dependent) , Honda designers would have accounted for the heating at the given rating, including expected heat from the engine.

Are you saying they weren't conservative enough?

Are you expecting the field coil or the stator to fail with heat?

Cheers,

[Deltarider]

The point condensers (capacitors) might live longer if placed in a cooler place?
I usually adjust ignition after a 20 minute ride. The point plate is really hot, too hot to touch without tools.

You can replace them by compatible modern condensers that will live forever and that you will find in any electronics shop and then connect those at the coil NEG leads (and GND ofcourse) close to the coils. I thought of doing that myself when I reassembled my homebuilt transistor ignition. By doing that I could have abandoned the condensers inside the ignition box ofcourse.   

[PeWe]

The point condensers (capacitors) might live longer if placed in a cooler place?
I usually adjust ignition after a 20 minute ride. The point plate is really hot, too hot to touch without tools.

You can replace them by compatible modern condensers that will live forever and that you will find in any electronics shop and then connect those at the coil NEG leads (and GND ofcourse) close to the coils. I thought of doing that myself when I reassembled my homebuilt transistor ignition. By doing that I could have abandoned the condensers inside the ignition box ofcourse.   

I have new home. I have not mounted them yet. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10pcs-CBB22-Capacitor-630V-224J-220nF-0-22uf-630V-224J-Pitch-15mm-/301252432850?hash=item46240b53d2:g:05wAAOSwsPlZwORN

I ordered pack of 10

Maybe in a box where the yellow and blue point wires hook up with the main harness. I have connection point for the groundwire from plate to Hondaman ignition module there too.
1. Condensor connected to blue wire, ground wire
2. Condensor  yellow wire,  ground wire