Author Topic: CB500K Jets, needles, exhaust changes  (Read 1529 times)

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Offline AndyH

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CB500K Jets, needles, exhaust changes
« on: October 15, 2017, 03:24:08 am »
I'm pondering whether I should sell my left kidney and invest in a set of 4 into 4 exhausts for my "almost" stock resto.

The bike currently has a 4 into 1 (I think it's a Delkevic) and after refurbing the carbs to stock (#40 slow, #100 main, jet needle clip position #3, IMS 1.5 turns out) the motor is still a little "rough" on idle and up to around 3k RPM with no load, a bit "unsmooth".  (Struggling to describe here).

Out on the road the bike pulls nicely over a large rev range (2000rpm up) but still sounds a bit rough at idle.

I guess my question is: what are the tuning differences between 4 into 1 as compared to "stock" i.e. 4 into 4 which is basically what I've set everything to?  Do I need to do anything?

Cheers
Andy

« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 02:34:44 am by AndyH »
1971 CB750K1 (US import)
1972 CB500 Four K1 (SOLD)
Previously owned..
1967 Honda Sports 90
1971 Yamaha CT2 175
1973 Yamaha RD250
1975 Kawasaki KX125
1983 Yamaha XT250T
BMW R65
BMW R80
BMW R100LT

Offline calj737

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2017, 04:24:00 am »
Personally, I doubt very much the Delkevic has enough restriction in it to alter the carburetion to the point of needing much more than a tweak of the screws.

Can you use some fresh plugs and perform an IDLE chop, then post those pictures? Perhaps then follow with a 1/4 throttle chop?

Just for clarification, you are using genuine Keihin needles and jets, and not aftermarket brand?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline AndyH

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2017, 06:08:21 pm »
The jets and needles are unchanged from what was fitted by the PO (aftermarket).

I'm waiting for a delivery of fresh plugs, and once the weather improves (very wet and windy ATM) I'll do an IDLE plug chop.
1971 CB750K1 (US import)
1972 CB500 Four K1 (SOLD)
Previously owned..
1967 Honda Sports 90
1971 Yamaha CT2 175
1973 Yamaha RD250
1975 Kawasaki KX125
1983 Yamaha XT250T
BMW R65
BMW R80
BMW R100LT

Offline calj737

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2017, 08:07:07 pm »
The jets and needles are unchanged from what was fitted by the PO (aftermarket).

I'm waiting for a delivery of fresh plugs, and once the weather improves (very wet and windy ATM) I'll do an IDLE plug chop.
Aftermarket brass is the source of your problem.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline AndyH

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2017, 09:26:37 pm »
OK, so which particular "brass" is the culprit?  Float valve, slow jet, main jet, needle jet, jet needle, IMS?
Or all of them?  There must be many folk who for whatever reason, now run aftermarket brass.  Surely not all of them would have issues?

I have a second set of carbs in very bad condition, but it appears that they have Keihin brass which would be a major task to clean....would it be worth doing so, and replacing the brass in the current carbs?

Sorry for all the Qs, but I'm trying to get a handle on "why" aftermarket brass should be a problem.
1971 CB750K1 (US import)
1972 CB500 Four K1 (SOLD)
Previously owned..
1967 Honda Sports 90
1971 Yamaha CT2 175
1973 Yamaha RD250
1975 Kawasaki KX125
1983 Yamaha XT250T
BMW R65
BMW R80
BMW R100LT

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2017, 09:54:16 pm »
OK, so which particular "brass" is the culprit?  Float valve, slow jet, main jet, needle jet, jet needle, IMS?
Or all of them?  There must be many folk who for whatever reason, now run aftermarket brass.  Surely not all of them would have issues?

I have a second set of carbs in very bad condition, but it appears that they have Keihin brass which would be a major task to clean....would it be worth doing so, and replacing the brass in the current carbs?

Sorry for all the Qs, but I'm trying to get a handle on "why" aftermarket brass should be a problem.
Aftermarket brass bits are often cheaper.  Ever wonder why?  Part of it is quality control, as in, do the parts have the original specified dimensions?  Some sellers leave measurement checking to the makers.  Paying someone to measure the parts costs money.  If the seller doesn't check and the maker has no pre-ship check point, it is easy for out of tolerance parts to slip through, as that lowers their business overhead.  So, parts sold may or may not be the dimensions Honda determined were correct.  Sometimes cheap is exactly that.  And, it is up to the buyer to determine if the part not only fits, but functions in the same way as original parts.

Unless the brass original parts are physically damaged or corroded, their dimensions are the same as when the bike left the showroom floor, as in "drove and operated well".

What historical record do you prefer for parts installed in your bike?  Proven working, or implementing a new testing/measurement process for the unproven parts to ensure proper function?

It is my belief that Keihin, has a consistent recipe for making parts for their carbs.  Or, they have a QA process to qualify parts they distribute under their company name.  So, buying replacements from the original manufacturer, is most likely to get you internal parts that work the same as when the bike left the showroom floor.

Or, you can experiment with "cheaper" or easier to get parts, and measure them in detail to ensure dimensional specifications. 

    Your choice.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline AndyH

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2017, 10:22:31 pm »
Thanks for that TT.  A fair commentary.
1971 CB750K1 (US import)
1972 CB500 Four K1 (SOLD)
Previously owned..
1967 Honda Sports 90
1971 Yamaha CT2 175
1973 Yamaha RD250
1975 Kawasaki KX125
1983 Yamaha XT250T
BMW R65
BMW R80
BMW R100LT

Offline dave500

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 12:54:56 am »
I had a keyster 100 jet that was actually 98

Offline AndyH

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 01:17:09 am »
I had a keyster 100 jet that was actually 98

Argh!  That's crap Dave!  >:(
I've decided to give the Keihin brass that I've taken out of the manky set of carbs in the spares bin, a clean-up to see how they come up.  They're in the ultrasonic cleaner with a dash of Simple Green, as we speak.
1971 CB750K1 (US import)
1972 CB500 Four K1 (SOLD)
Previously owned..
1967 Honda Sports 90
1971 Yamaha CT2 175
1973 Yamaha RD250
1975 Kawasaki KX125
1983 Yamaha XT250T
BMW R65
BMW R80
BMW R100LT

Offline calj737

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 03:17:57 am »
Personally, I’d tend to suspect the needles as the primary culprit for issues such as yours. But, I’d definitely put back the stock jets as they’re very easy to access and replace. The needle changes will require a re-synch afterwards.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline dave500

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 02:03:07 am »
the simple one millimetre drill test,wouldnt go through the 100 jet,a .98 drill did.,soak brass in vinegar over night,clean it up with 0000 steel wool.
heres an emulsion tube from a set of carbs guy told me came off a good running bike!yeah right!and here it is next day,i like to chamfer the holes aswell.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 02:16:23 am by dave500 »

Offline AndyH

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 03:08:26 am »
That came up bloody nice Dave!  8)

So what's the benefit of chamfering the holes...improved emulsification i.e. smaller fuel globule size?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 03:11:13 am by AndyH »
1971 CB750K1 (US import)
1972 CB500 Four K1 (SOLD)
Previously owned..
1967 Honda Sports 90
1971 Yamaha CT2 175
1973 Yamaha RD250
1975 Kawasaki KX125
1983 Yamaha XT250T
BMW R65
BMW R80
BMW R100LT

Offline calj737

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 03:48:12 am »
That, and it decreases the tendency for debris to collect around the edges.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB500K changing back to 4 into 4 from 4 into 1
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 05:56:35 am »
The pictures Dave showed, I could have made myself some 30 years ago, servicing my carbs, be it that the needle jet in my 'first' pic would not have shown as bad as his. I'd say about 20-25% of the emulsion holes in my 4 needle jets were closed with white stuff in such a way that I thought for a moment Honda could have ment it this way. Ofcourse I cleaned those emulsion holes as I'd advice everyone to do btw. But... guess what... I never noticed any difference in performance, nor mileage, before and after... Why do I post this? Just to warn not to have too high expectations. In my experience it's the same with the fuellevel in the floatchambers: one mm higher or lower... I doubt you will ever notice the difference.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 06:00:25 am by Deltarider »
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Offline AndyH

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Re: CB500K Jets, needles, exhaust changes
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2017, 02:57:08 am »
OK I've changed the topic subject as this thread now discusses more than just exhaust changes.

To bring you folk up to date:  I cleaned and spruced up the OEM (Keihin) brass that I found in a really poor condition rack of 627B carbs which came as a parts bin with a genuine seat base I was able to procure.  A few days back I removed the carb rack and removed the aftermarket brass.

So today after meticulously cleaning the carbs innards again, I installed the K brass, bench synced using the TwoTired (Lloyd) light method, and refitted the carbs in the bike.  A little bit of silicon spray on a rag was wiped around the engine side insulators which made refit very simple!

Getting the bands refitted took about 3 times as long tho', coz I have awkward hands!  :P ???  Getting those screws in is a right royal pain in the butt! >:(

Anyway, all done now, plenum, airbox, filter and top-cover refitted.  Waiting for a couple of new sets of D7EA to vacuum resync, hopefully to arrive early next week.

Meanwhile, the Good Lady and I are off for the weekend to celebrate yet another year of married life.  8)
1971 CB750K1 (US import)
1972 CB500 Four K1 (SOLD)
Previously owned..
1967 Honda Sports 90
1971 Yamaha CT2 175
1973 Yamaha RD250
1975 Kawasaki KX125
1983 Yamaha XT250T
BMW R65
BMW R80
BMW R100LT

Offline dave500

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Re: CB500K Jets, needles, exhaust changes
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2017, 04:51:43 am »
you meet the nicest wives on a Honda.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB500K Jets, needles, exhaust changes
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2017, 04:52:51 am »
my folks have been married bout 60 years,i said #$%* ya get less than that for murder!

Offline AndyH

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Re: CB500K Jets, needles, exhaust changes
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2017, 05:48:31 am »
 ;D ;D ;D
1971 CB750K1 (US import)
1972 CB500 Four K1 (SOLD)
Previously owned..
1967 Honda Sports 90
1971 Yamaha CT2 175
1973 Yamaha RD250
1975 Kawasaki KX125
1983 Yamaha XT250T
BMW R65
BMW R80
BMW R100LT