Topic: First start after rebuild

[bambuhiphop]

Hello All,

I am just about ready to attempt a start on the motor after the rebuild. I'm being a little overly cautious because of how long I've been at this. I know there are a slew of opinions and thoughts on this whole process but I'm mainly trying to focus on the first start. I've got everything torqued, timed, and set. I've got the hydraulic clutch bled and ready (just in case). Have a little over 3 quarts of oil in the motor. This was going to be my procedure...

- Disconnect coils and work the starter to get oil throughput the motor.
- Confirm oil is working its way up top.
- Reconnect coils.
- Check oil level.
- Go for first run
- Hold slightly elevated rpm (around 2k) for a few minutes.
- Let engine cool, check for leaks, check oil level.
- From there engine is ready to be broken in on additional runs...

Sound like a sound strategy??

[my name is nobody]

Looks like a plan.
I always crank mine with the plugs out when priming, short bursts, till oil is visible in the top end.
And make sure everything has been pre lubed with oil or assembly lube..fwiw

[dave500]

just start it up.

[DaveBarbier]

For my 550 and 650 motor, just cranking didn’t get oil up to the top end. Maybe my oil pump wasn’t primed fully. I just started it up and opened a tappet cover.

Did you retorque the head after letting it sit overnight?

Aside from that, go fire it up.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

just start it up.

+1 and watch for oil pressure in a few seconds

[bambuhiphop]

You don't need to unplug the coils, just don't move the KILL/RUN switch into the RUN position. IF you're going to let it run for a couple of minutes in the garage, a box fan is recommended to blow air across that motor.

No Kill/Run switch. Just 2 m.switch minis on the left. Thanks for the fan idea. I'll totally do that.

[bambuhiphop]

Did you retorque the head after letting it sit overnight?

Yup!

[bambuhiphop]

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

[bambuhiphop]

How much cranking is to much cranking? I’ve hit the start button 12-15 times and I’m not seeing any oil when I remove the tappet covers...

[dave500]

just start it up.

[my name is nobody]

just start it up.

+1  I  got lucky with mine and oil got up top quickly, but if you've filled up the oil passages and primed the pump, it should supply oil quickly after start up. your assembly lube will do its job till oil gets where it needs to be.

[DaveBarbier]

just start it up.

+2

[bambuhiphop]

just start it up.

Thanks. I'll do that, hahaha! No, I know I just need to start it. I've just been rebuilding it for so long I'm just hyper nervous about something going wrong. I'd rather ask some dumb questions then break something because I didn't.

I need to swing by the gas station and get my 2 gallon can filled. I'll get some gas in it and attempt a start in the next few days.

[bambuhiphop]

So I tried to just start it. Didn't quite go...

Scottly was thinking it is the starter clutch slipping. Going to attempt a kick start tonight. 

[DaveBarbier]

Hmm, could be, but short video so it’s hard to tell. If it happens to be the starter clutch, that can be remived with the motor in the frame.

[bambuhiphop]

This one is a little longer...

[DaveBarbier]

Could be the starter too. You can pull the starter, hold it against a chassis ground and and see if it spins without making that noise. That’s what I’d try. Also you can stick your finger or a clean screw driver in the hole it comes from and see if you can spin the gear in both directions. It should only spin in one.

[bambuhiphop]

When I had the coils disconnected and was working the starter I didn’t here that sound. I will try both things you suggested. Thanks for the troubleshooting ideas!

[RAFster122s]

hydrolocked cylinder would be overcoming your starter clutch. Stuck float open can fill a cylinder and it won't compress.
Pull plugs if you have resistance to kicking it over by hand. Doing it by hand you can better judge the force you are dealing with unless you have a calibrated leg ""
Just a shot in the dark at the issue for what might cause a starter clutch to slip badly.
You do not want to kick over a cylinder full of gas, it will not compress very easily and something might get broken/bent

Likelihood of it being this issue, 2%

Good luck sorting it...lots of smarter people than me here providing advice on things to look at.

[bambuhiphop]

Made some noise on 2nd kick. Still obviously have an issue and the idle is way high but noise none the less!!

[scottly]

When I had the coils disconnected and was working the starter I didn’t here that sound.

Your ignition timing may be a bit advanced, which would place more load on the starter clutch.

[bambuhiphop]

When I had the coils disconnected and was working the starter I didn’t here that sound.

Your ignition timing may be a bit advanced, which would place more load on the starter clutch.

Hhhhmmmmm... that’s makes me wonder if the rotary switch for the C5 is in the wrong position...

[scottly]

With the C5, it's more likely that the static setting is off; there is no way to verify the timing with a strobe on those ignitions. You need to reinstall the stock advancer, set the crank to TDC, then switch to the C5 and hope you get it right. Better yet, if you still have all the stock parts, run the stock ignition while you dial the new motor in, then switch to the C5.

[DaveBarbier]

When you find TDC with the points ignition installed, remove the stator cover and make a punch mark on the case and rotor to show TDC.

—-

Off the subject, is there a part number on those coils? I have a C5 and am curious about doing some testing. I want to know if we have the same coils. I have a 650, but they might use the same exact system.

I’m trying to find someone with a C5 that lives in a hot climate that I can send my coils to to use them for a bit to see if they shut off after an hour or so in the heat. I’m in CT and it’s not hot enough to do any testing yet.

[RAFster122s]

Is the C5 modified for the CDI coils of a 650? Or, is it a 550 C5 system modified to fit?  The characteristics and resistance of the stock 650 coils is different than the roughly 5 ohm coil of the points system coil.
Or, did they build a C5 system specific to the 650?
Not like it isn't needed with ignitors (?) and other stuff of the CDI failing on the 650.

David, a heat gun could help "overheat" or run your coils in a high heat situation but you can't carry around a heat gun and operate it while riding...

David

[bambuhiphop]

With the C5, it's more likely that the static setting is off; there is no way to verify the timing with a strobe on those ignitions. You need to reinstall the stock advancer, set the crank to TDC, then switch to the C5 and hope you get it right. Better yet, if you still have all the stock parts, run the stock ignition while you dial the new motor in, then switch to the C5.

Still have the advancer but the points were toast when I got the bike. You have a C5, no? If so, do you have the rotary switch? I just relooked at the instructions and position 1 has the most advance. That’s what I am on right now. I think I’m gonna unhook the coils move to position 4 and see if that makes any difference. At worst I can eliminate the rotary as a suspect.

[DaveBarbier]

Is the C5 modified for the CDI coils of a 650? Or, is it a 550 C5 system modified to fit?  The characteristics and resistance of the stock 650 coils is different than the roughly 5 ohm coil of the points system coil.
Or, did they build a C5 system specific to the 650?
Not like it isn't needed with ignitors (?) and other stuff of the CDI failing on the 650.

David, a heat gun could help "overheat" or run your coils in a high heat situation but you can't carry around a heat gun and operate it while riding...

David

C5 comes with it’s own coils.

I’m not about to heat up my coils with a heat gun while running the bike to try and simulate them over heating, haha. Too easy to damage them or give myself a false positive or false negative. Much rather test in the actual environment.

[DaveBarbier]

With the C5, it's more likely that the static setting is off; there is no way to verify the timing with a strobe on those ignitions. You need to reinstall the stock advancer, set the crank to TDC, then switch to the C5 and hope you get it right. Better yet, if you still have all the stock parts, run the stock ignition while you dial the new motor in, then switch to the C5.

Still have the advancer but the points were toast when I got the bike. You have a C5, no? If so, do you have the rotary switch? I just relooked at the instructions and position 1 has the most advance. That’s what I am on right now. I think I’m gonna unhook the coils move to position 4 and see if that makes any difference. At worst I can eliminate the rotary as a suspect.

The different position don’t alter idle timing. Even if it did, it’s designed to function anyway. I’d check the plate is in the right position at TDC 1/4.

Don’t need the points, just put the advancer on, rotate the motor to 1/4 TDC, remove the advancer and install the C5 plate correctly.

[bambuhiphop]

Still on kick but life!!!!! Worked out some ideas on the sound and I think it is the starter. Doesn’t make the sound on kick and when plugs are pulled. Seems like the starter might be bad and is failing when there is compression.

[The Lone Builder]

just start it up.

I've just been rebuilding it for so long I'm just hyper nervous about something going wrong. I'd rather ask some dumb questions then break something because I didn't.

Haha! I know that feeling. Every day as I bolt something down, or tighten something up that will mean a BIG backtrack if it's not right.

Good luck!

[dave500]

congrats on the start up,that pink paper air filter on the breather wont work,youve swapped it out from being vacuumed by the air box,sitting like that itll just stagnate any fumes,you need to make it like the early type and have a long tube dangle down in the air draft to evacuate fumes,filters are for intakes not for #$%* coming out,itll only clog from the inside.,ive seen this often and its wrong.

[Bodi]

The crankcase gets blowby gases passing the piston rings, oil volatiles, steam from any water in the cases or oil boiling off, and any valveguide leakage... all with some (or a lot) of pressure behind them. You don't need suction to draw it out, it's coming out a vent or popping out a sesl and coming out anyway. A filter will at least coagulate any oil droplets so the bits around the outlet get less oily. You really should plumb the vent back to the intake to burn the oil and other hydrocarbons in the vented gases.

[DaveBarbier]

The filter as I see it is just to allow gasses out while preventing bugs and such climbing in. Only issue with the filter is that it’ll get saturated with oil and then repeatedly drip down the side of the motor. It’ll go from a nice red to a black in a couple weeks.

I’m with Dave as for routing a long tube behind the crank case in front of the swing arm. He’s not about to drill a hole in his pod filter box (looks like a cognito part) just to reburn the blow by gasses.

[dave500]

before pcv on cars they had draught tubes,looked like a walking stick hanging out of the rocker cover down to the road way,as the car sped along fumes got drawn out,was a lot of oil on the road back then!especially at stop lights where cars sat and dripped for a while.

[bambuhiphop]

congrats on the start up,that pink paper air filter on the breather wont work,youve swapped it out from being vacuumed by the air box,sitting like that itll just stagnate any fumes,you need to make it like the early type and have a long tube dangle down in the air draft to evacuate fumes,filters are for intakes not for #$%* coming out,itll only clog from the inside.,ive seen this often and its wrong.

Don't plan on keeping it there. Thought that was better than nothing while i got things going. The tubing I got sucks. Need to find something I can route down lower in the frame.

[bambuhiphop]

And I've been working on the nasty sound this weekend. After a lot of process of elimination I'm pretty positive the first idea from Scottly is the culprit.

I wanted to eliminate any electrical items as the cause. Rechecked my gounds, no dice. Check positive side cables, no dice. Bought a new starter, no dice. Wired it directly to the battery, no dice. It really seems it is the starter clutch... When I swapped the starter l looked at the gear. It looked fine, moved forward very smoothly, and didn't move backwards except against the cush rubber. I think when it engages something is off and can't keep up with the compression.

I've started the process of ordering parts to rebuild. Sucky, but not the end of the world. I found the thread that walks through replacing it without pulling the motor.

I'll put updates in my build thread for those who might be interested. That's here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,86158.0.html