Author Topic: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot  (Read 6399 times)

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Offline gmoneymagna

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2018, 12:22:14 PM »
I'm not sure how this bent valve could have occured as it was not having these symptoms before the valve adjustment which I did correctly to the best of my knowledge.  There was slight upper engine noise before adjustment. Do you think it could be caused by something else causing the mixutre to ignite at an innapropriate time while the intake or exhaust valves are open?

As to the last question, no.  The valve bends with some mechanical interference.  In a wasted spark system, it is normal for the spark plugs to fire between the exhaust and intake stroke. Maybe some valve open overlap at that point.  No biggie.

If the valve guides/valve stems get a carbon build up on them, they can't slide smoothly and can hang open.  This would allow the piston to come up and smack the valves.   Improper cam timing can also cause this.

On the 550, reinstalling the cam cover/cylinder cover improperly can also bend valves.  I don't know if the 650 shares this procedural danger.   Has the cam cover been off the engine since new?
They don't have to bend much to cause sticking.  Some have reported hearing the valves snap shut while turning the engine over slowly by hand.

Back in the 50's and 60's OHV engines using the non-detergent oils available at the time, frequently had valve sticking issues. Over the counter additives were offered to "clean" the valves and loosen them up.  I think all the detergent oils already have such an additive since then.

If you have been using the proper oil in this engine, I think carbon on the valve guides is unlikely.  But, what of historical treatment/maintenance of this motor?

Anyway,the leakdown test should reveal if you have an issue there.


Good luck!

No signs of hearing valves snap shut while turning engine over by hand. I have always used standard (without modern friction additive) valvaline 10w-40 oil yearly or every 3,000 miles. When remove the breather tube cover and valve covers I can see the cam lobe and measure the feelers ontop of it. In the manual there is no specific instructions for replacing these it just states to replace them back onto the motor. The rubber gaskets appear to be in good shape. I have never done any upper motor work or removed that cam shaft.

Historically I have had this bike for 4-5 yrs for 5k miles. I bought it from a nice gentlman who restores them. I never checked or did any initial maintenance. I have also never done any maintenace aside from oil changes and brake fluid changes. I have been a pretty poor motorcycle owner but I'm trying to learn maintenance tasks so I can have well performing bikes in the future. However this situation has been discoraging as the bike was running better than before I did the maintenance. I'll keep chugging along.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2018, 07:08:30 PM »
Gmoney,

Does this popping puffing intensify when loading the engine as slipping the clutch to take off....?

Have you checked #4 spark plug for proper gap and condition (color) compared to another properly running cylinder...?

Have you tried moving spark plug #4 to cylinder #1. To see if the popping moves to #1......?

And you have seated all your carbs And rubber intakes completely on the spigots...?
Your previous post indicates carbs on right side may have slipped back.

Have you corrected fuel leaking out of #4 cylinder intake..? Sometimes a dead cylinder (non-firing) cylinder will intermittently hit  and ignite a poor air/fuel mixture from a malfunctioning carburetor. But this would not pop (reversion) back through the carb.

Try compartmentalizing your tests.

 Verify Ignition is functioning normally on cylinder 4.

#4 carb float is not the source of your indicated fuel leak.

Leak down test cylinder #4 to ensure intake and exhaust valves are seating.

A good compression tester could hint of a problem when caompared to a good cylinder. Not as conclusive as leak down tester but you'll still have to compare to a good cylinder.

You'll find it, just keep after it.
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Offline gmoneymagna

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2018, 08:16:39 PM »
Gmoney,

Does this popping puffing intensify when loading the engine as slipping the clutch to take off....?

Have you checked #4 spark plug for proper gap and condition (color) compared to another properly running cylinder...?

Have you tried moving spark plug #4 to cylinder #1. To see if the popping moves to #1......?

And you have seated all your carbs And rubber intakes completely on the spigots...?
Your previous post indicates carbs on right side may have slipped back.

Have you corrected fuel leaking out of #4 cylinder intake..? Sometimes a dead cylinder (non-firing) cylinder will intermittently hit  and ignite a poor air/fuel mixture from a malfunctioning carburetor. But this would not pop (reversion) back through the carb.

Try compartmentalizing your tests.

 Verify Ignition is functioning normally on cylinder 4.

#4 carb float is not the source of your indicated fuel leak.

Leak down test cylinder #4 to ensure intake and exhaust valves are seating.

A good compression tester could hint of a problem when compared to a good cylinder. Not as conclusive as leak down tester but you'll still have to compare to a good cylinder.

You'll find it, just keep after it.

I have not driven the bike yet since this started but the puffing is worse when the engine warms up and when the revs are higher with choke. The bike also dies without choke. All exhaust pipes are hot. I will check the gap of the plug in number 4 and try to switch it to 1 and see what happens. I assume this won't alter timing?

I have to adjust the carb exit further into the rubber boot in 3/4. The fuel is not really leaking from carb 4 intake boot as much as it is shooting out with the puffing of air. The carbs have never given me trouble on this bike as I use only non-ethanol fuel and it was not leaking before the initial valve adjustment. I will complete the tests laid out in your posts and others this week. Thanks for the support!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 08:23:22 PM by gmoneymagna »

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2018, 05:21:46 AM »
Can you post a video of it running?

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Offline Don R

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2018, 06:27:58 AM »
 I skipped ahead, but if you haven't seated the carbs into the manifolds properly yet do that next. A vacuum leak can cause all sorts of odd things to happen. Be sure to loosen the clamps on all four carbs so you don't bend or break the carb plate, get them seated then proceed with anything else you feel is needed. Plugged jets will also create a lean condition that can cause popping. Good luck,
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2018, 07:07:30 PM »
Gmoney,

After rereading all your post, I would try to get the bike running as well as "before lash adjustment" prior to synchronizing the carburetors. The bike will have to run properly with out the choke on before synchronizing with any kind of success.

Stay at it a post a video with sound of it running and taking the choke off slowly.
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Offline gmoneymagna

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2018, 08:39:41 PM »
Gmoney,

After rereading all your post, I would try to get the bike running as well as "before lash adjustment" prior to synchronizing the carburetors. The bike will have to run properly with out the choke on before synchronizing with any kind of success.

Stay at it a post a video with sound of it running and taking the choke off slowly.

That makes sense. However it really only started running badly after the adjustment. I will post a video tomorrow. Thanks!

Offline gmoneymagna

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2018, 03:58:10 PM »
UPDATE

I loosened all of the carb boots to the engine and pushed the carb bank up towards the engine until the lip of carbs 3/4 were inside the boot and then tightened it up. Then I replaced the new spark plug (NGK DR8ES-L) with the old one NGK "R" DPR8EA "9" only on cylinder 4 which was the one puffing air from the carb boot. Now the first three cylinders have the new plugs recommended by the manual and the 4th has the old old one. Started right up and was able to idle in short time without abnormal noises or puffs of air from the carb boots. Yes!

I'm on my way to get a spark plug gap in-case that was the problem. However, what do you all think about using spark plugs that are not in the manual? Does it make that much of a difference? I could put all the old plugs in, gap and reinstall all my new plugs, or buy new plugs of the old type. Which do you think is best? Thanks!

Once the plug issue is sorted out I will continue with a full tune up including cam chain tensioner adjustment and carb sync.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 04:21:37 PM by gmoneymagna »

Offline Don R

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2018, 04:05:51 PM »
 I'm glad you had some success G. Thanks for the report.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2018, 06:44:08 PM »
GMoney,

Great news. Spark Plugs are like engine oil. They've both came along way in the last 30 years and they both have the same job they had before. I like the NGK and ND for the old Honda. You'll have lots of options just with those two. More if you include more brands.

Well Done, persistence pays off but costs along the way.
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Offline gmoneymagna

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Re: Puffs of air / backfiring and fuel leak from carb boot
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2018, 02:33:18 PM »
Update for everyone.

I replaced and properly gapped all 4 spark plugs and and found the carbs were already in sync. The bike absolutely soars to the redline now and low rpm dying is basically gone.

The tick is still present on the top right of the engine. I double checked vavles of 3 and 4 again and they are in spec.

I plan to replace the exhaust with a MAC 4 into 1 with a cone engineering muffler so I may just see if that fixes a tick that may be due and exhaust gasket leak.

Thanks for the help everyone!

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