Topic: non ethonal gas

[irish44395]

I found this link on my https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_155275865342715&key=0070d0d5a123db19ebc84be9c1773544&libId=jtbseied0100on82000DAbnwycjj8&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fgl1800riders.com%2Fforums%2F4-general-mc-message-board%2F444053-ethanol.html&v=1&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pure-gas.org%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fgl1800riders.com%2Fforums%2F4-general-mc-message-board%2F&title=Ethanol%20-%20GL1800Riders&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pure-gas.org%2F  fourm 
The nearest gas station near me  only has it in 90 octane only. Is it ok to run the 90 octane in my 82 650 ?
Pete

[70CB750]

Of course, it will not cause any harm.

The higher the octane number, the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

[sixthwisconsin]

Puregas makes a very nice phone app for traveling as well.

[irish44395]

Of course, it will not cause any harm.

The higher the octane number, the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

Thanks for the link learn something new . I'll give it a go and see if I get better performance 
Thanks Pete

[TwoTired]

If by performance you mean better fuel economy, then yes.  Alcohol has less energy density than gasoline.

E10 also leans the mixture.  Puregas should richen it back up.  This assumes your bike wasn't retuned to run properly on E10.

May not feel any power under your butt.  Depending on what it was tuned to use.   Octane doesn't make power.  It allows power in high compression engines.

Cheers,

[Duke McDukiedook]

If it is 92 octane like they have to sell in Missouri without the ethanol you might have to retard your timing but at 90 octane you should be ok?
Luckily in Sasnak they don't have silly rules such as this and I can buy it at 87 octane.

[jlh3rd]

Of course, it will not cause any harm.

The higher the octane number, the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

Thanks for the link learn something new . I'll give it a go and see if I get better performance 
Thanks Pete

as stated by someone else, the alcohol free gas won't necessarily give you a " power " boost. Neither will a higher octane, in and by itself. However, if you're a tinkerer, and you use a higher octane
fuel, you can increase the timing to the point where detonation occurs and then back it off. It'd be a time consuming process but could result in a slight power increase. Not worth my time.
    Car engines today can do that automatically, using knock sensors.
just a fyi...

[spotty]

and if you should find somewhere that sells 105 octane...don't be tempted

lets just say the best use i found for it after draining the tank was weedkiller, over 5 years ago and still nothing has grown along that path

[pjlogue]

Unless an engine is designed for high octane, using it does nothing.  In fact, it will slightly decrease your gas mileage if an engine is tuned for lower octane.  This is because the flame front burns slower and you do not reach as high combustion pressure because the piston is on the way down again before the fuel mix is fully burned.  You can advance the timing slightly to counter this but it's not as good as an engine with high compression that is tuned for high octane.  For these stock SOHC engines, (excluding the sand cast early engines) using high octane gas will cause increased fouling of the combustion chamber and plugs.

-P. 

[Deltarider]

In fact, it will slightly decrease your gas mileage if an engine is tuned for lower octane.  This is because the flame front burns slower and you do not reach as high combustion pressure because the piston is on the way down again before the fuel mix is fully burned. ...  For these stock SOHC engines, (excluding the sand cast early engines) using high octane gas will cause increased fouling of the combustion chamber and plugs.

Now, where-in-the-world-did-you-learn-that?!

[pjlogue]

In fact, it will slightly decrease your gas mileage if an engine is tuned for lower octane.  This is because the flame front burns slower and you do not reach as high combustion pressure because the piston is on the way down again before the fuel mix is fully burned. ...  For these stock SOHC engines, (excluding the sand cast early engines) using high octane gas will cause increased fouling of the combustion chamber and plugs.

Now, where-in-the-world-did-you-learn-that?!

Many years ago I tried AveGas (110 Octane) I noticed my gas mileage drop when I used it.  I asked an old school pilot why the mileage would drop using high octane and he told me and it made complete sense from a physics standpoint.  Back in the 70's the fuel embargo didn't really affect the aviation fuel like it did the rest of the country.  I could go to the pump at the airport and get 5 gal.  Of course I paid for it as it was 2X what gas at the local station was.  Didn't do it too often as it did foul plugs quite a bit. 

-P.

[jlh3rd]

In fact, it will slightly decrease your gas mileage if an engine is tuned for lower octane.  This is because the flame front burns slower and you do not reach as high combustion pressure because the piston is on the way down again before the fuel mix is fully burned. ...  For these stock SOHC engines, (excluding the sand cast early engines) using high octane gas will cause increased fouling of the combustion chamber and plugs.

Now, where-in-the-world-did-you-learn-that?!

Many years ago I tried AveGas (110 Octane) I noticed my gas mileage drop when I used it.  I asked an old school pilot why the mileage would drop using high octane and he told me and it made complete sense from a physics standpoint.  Back in the 70's the fuel embargo didn't really affect the aviation fuel like it did the rest of the country.  I could go to the pump at the airport and get 5 gal.  Of course I paid for it as it was 2X what gas at the local station was.  Didn't do it too often as it did foul plugs quite a bit. 

-P.

which is why you advance the timing to achieve max cylinder pressure around 2 degrees after TDC.
slower burning fuel ( higher octane) ...advance the timing..

[irish44395]

The only reason I wanted to try non ethonal  was the fact that when my bike was made thats what it ran . I filled  it up and we'll see how it does  haven't rode it  since .its been rainy and cold so I ride the goldwing to work .
Pete

[jlh3rd]

The only reason I wanted to try non ethonal  was the fact that when my bike was made thats what it ran . I filled  it up and we'll see how it does  haven't rode it  since .its been rainy and cold so I ride the goldwing to work .
Pete

you'll get all kinds of opinions. Mine?, i know alcohol is corrosive, and vintage carbs, fuel lines, don't like it. So you have to add an alcohol stabilizer. Now you've added another product to a vintage fuel system that might further contribute to fuel burn, flame fronts, timing in the cylinder  which might lend itself to fouling issues. I have no idea, but like you said, the system was designed for normal gas.
There are more btu's per volume with real gas, so more " energy ", ...so at least better mileage.
     There are people that swear their alcohol tainted lawn mowers, power equipment runs like crap. I've had no problems, but i'm meticulous with maintenance......
but real gas goes in my honda and 02 camaro......just because.....

[Tracksnblades1]

About gasoline and those blends, when, where, and what time.
City and winter fuel may be less for more.
Some numbers them airplane and racer guys know all about....

Not to get on a number tangent, but if your calculating BTU rises and falls of that water.
Don't forget that pesky Latent heat of states. Only for liquid H2O, Add 144 btu's going from 32* ice
to 32* water, add 970 btu's going from 212* water to 212* steam.

And in absolute terms don't forget absolute temperature.....

[Tracksnblades1]

In fact, it will slightly decrease your gas mileage if an engine is tuned for lower octane.  This is because the flame front burns slower and you do not reach as high combustion pressure because the piston is on the way down again before the fuel mix is fully burned. ...  For these stock SOHC engines, (excluding the sand cast early engines) using high octane gas will cause increased fouling of the combustion chamber and plugs.

Now, where-in-the-world-did-you-learn-that?!

Many years ago I tried AveGas (110 Octane) I noticed my gas mileage drop when I used it.  I asked an old school pilot why the mileage would drop using high octane and he told me and it made complete sense from a physics standpoint.  Back in the 70's the fuel embargo didn't really affect the aviation fuel like it did the rest of the country.  I could go to the pump at the airport and get 5 gal.  Of course I paid for it as it was 2X what gas at the local station was.  Didn't do it too often as it did foul plugs quite a bit. 

-P.

Unless an engine is designed for high octane, using it does nothing.  In fact, it will slightly decrease your gas mileage if an engine is tuned for lower octane.  This is because the flame front burns slower and you do not reach as high combustion pressure because the piston is on the way down again before the fuel mix is fully burned.  You can advance the timing slightly to counter this but it's not as good as an engine with high compression that is tuned for high octane.  For these stock SOHC engines, (excluding the sand cast early engines) using high octane gas will cause increased fouling of the combustion chamber and plugs.

-P.

You do realize aviation gasoline and pump gasoline don't share the same standardized octane ratings?
Pump 110 would be closer to 150 Aviation. I think most racers experience leaner mixtures with aviation gas since its has a lower specific gravity by volume. Aviation reciprocal engines tend to operate below 3000 RPMs and even the older ones have adjustable timing and carburetor mixtures that can be adjusted on the fly, so to speak. Additionally those same engine operate at varying altitude pressures. Ranging from sea level take off air pressure @14.7# down to 10.1# at 10,000ft.
Only the tip of the discussion...

[jlh3rd]

In fact, it will slightly decrease your gas mileage if an engine is tuned for lower octane.  This is because the flame front burns slower and you do not reach as high combustion pressure because the piston is on the way down again before the fuel mix is fully burned. ...  For these stock SOHC engines, (excluding the sand cast early engines) using high octane gas will cause increased fouling of the combustion chamber and plugs.

Now, where-in-the-world-did-you-learn-that?!

Many years ago I tried AveGas (110 Octane) I noticed my gas mileage drop when I used it.  I asked an old school pilot why the mileage would drop using high octane and he told me and it made complete sense from a physics standpoint.  Back in the 70's the fuel embargo didn't really affect the aviation fuel like it did the rest of the country.  I could go to the pump at the airport and get 5 gal.  Of course I paid for it as it was 2X what gas at the local station was.  Didn't do it too often as it did foul plugs quite a bit. 

-P.

Unless an engine is designed for high octane, using it does nothing.  In fact, it will slightly decrease your gas mileage if an engine is tuned for lower octane.  This is because the flame front burns slower and you do not reach as high combustion pressure because the piston is on the way down again before the fuel mix is fully burned.  You can advance the timing slightly to counter this but it's not as good as an engine with high compression that is tuned for high octane.  For these stock SOHC engines, (excluding the sand cast early engines) using high octane gas will cause increased fouling of the combustion chamber and plugs.

-P.

You do realize aviation gasoline and pump gasoline don't share the same standardized octane ratings?
Pump 110 would be closer to 150 Aviation. I think most racers experience leaner mixtures with aviation gas since its has a lower specific gravity by volume. Aviation reciprocal engines tend to operate below 3000 RPMs and even the older ones have adjustable timing and carburetor mixtures that can be adjusted on the fly, so to speak. Additionally those same engine operate at varying altitude pressures. Ranging from sea level take off air pressure @14.7# down to 10.1# at 10,000ft.
Only the tip of the discussion...

tip of the iceberg is right...( hijacking thread?) i guess....y'all can have the physics, chemistry and math.
All the pistons engine aircraft i flew had mixture control but no timing capability, but i never flew radials, only the cessnas,pipers and beechcraft. For cruise,we'd lean to peak and then enriched about 100 degrees...egt....if memory serves....
       care to explain why aviation gas has lower specific gravity than auto gas? .......is it the octane increasers?....or actual cracking process?

[pjlogue]

Avegas and auto gas octane rating is similar  up to about 100 octane.  https://www.aviationpros.com/fbos-tenants/article/10387611/octane-101-autogas-vs-avgas 

Piston engine aircraft do not have on-the-fly timing adjustments.  At least they didn't back when I worked on  aircraft.   

-P.

[Tracksnblades1]

Avegas and auto gas octane rating is similar  up to about 100 octane.  https://www.aviationpros.com/fbos-tenants/article/10387611/octane-101-autogas-vs-avgas 

Piston engine aircraft do not have on-the-fly timing adjustments.  At least they didn't back when I worked on  aircraft.   

-P.

Getting out in front of it ....?  I see now you know even pump gasoline's specific gravity varies too.
In addition to the attachment, the infamous Wikipedia may enlighten how aviation fuel compares to pump gas, perhaps not....even at the posted 110 level....

https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/tech-article/specific-gravity-matter

[slikwilli420]

Av has has extra steps to make sure they're is no water present that can freeze in flight. Other than that you are paying a premium for non ethanol that can be had elsewhere. No need to run anything other than 89/90 octane in our bikes when the engine is stock.

[Redline it]

we should boycott all fuel purchases until the refinery adds the stabilizer to the trash gas. so all of the stations are using high corn ethanol products to cut the gas, and it's now state wide legal or mandatory. with claims that stations are either forbidden to sell straight gas and even if it's just a massive marketing profit for the whole bunch of refineries and trucks and stations it's still described as environment necessary, unless you go to home depot/lowes and buy a qt of straight 2 stoke gas for 5 or 6 bucks, a gallon for 20. who's screwing who? as long as you can spend 20 on a gallon that's a free environment pass. it is good stuff. run it in a 2 stroke and then add straight gasoline and it doesn't seize for a while. i tested it. 

[millla03]

Not trying to stir the pot, but what specific problems have been experienced from the E10-E15 fuels? I've ran many gallons of pump gas thru my K2, and never put much thought into the ethanol content of the fuel. Bike just sat from November till last Wednesday with about 3 gallons of gas in it, and it started and ran as well as ever. Don't remember if I put fuel stabilizer in or not. Never had carb corrosion issues or anything, and the OEM fuel line I use holds up fine. Maybe prolonged sitting (more than 3-4 months) is where the issues start to crop up?

[Deltarider]

Milla, you're right. It's the usual internet echochamber. I never had a problem and mine hibernates 5 months. It's stories repeated over and over again and I can't help having the feeling the original source is somebody complaining that 'forgets' to inform us he had left his bike sitting for... years!

[pjlogue]

Not trying to stir the pot, but what specific problems have been experienced from the E10-E15 fuels? I've ran many gallons of pump gas thru my K2, and never put much thought into the ethanol content of the fuel. Bike just sat from November till last Wednesday with about 3 gallons of gas in it, and it started and ran as well as ever. Don't remember if I put fuel stabilizer in or not. Never had carb corrosion issues or anything, and the OEM fuel line I use holds up fine. Maybe prolonged sitting (more than 3-4 months) is where the issues start to crop up?

A lot has to do with the conditions the bike is stored.  The biggest problem with EtOH gas is it can (and will) separate with high humidity environments.  The more humidity, the more water vapor gets sucked out of the air.  If you had a bike with EtOH gas stored in a dry garage with the temps held steady I think the gas would last a long time before separating.  In a high humidity garage with big temp swings it won't last long before separating.  When the EtOH in the gas gets saturated with water it separates from the gas and that's when it becomes a problem as the water phase is acidic.  If you pull your float bowls and see a greenish deposit, it's a sign that the EtOH gas is doing harm. 

-P.

[millla03]

Not trying to stir the pot, but what specific problems have been experienced from the E10-E15 fuels? I've ran many gallons of pump gas thru my K2, and never put much thought into the ethanol content of the fuel. Bike just sat from November till last Wednesday with about 3 gallons of gas in it, and it started and ran as well as ever. Don't remember if I put fuel stabilizer in or not. Never had carb corrosion issues or anything, and the OEM fuel line I use holds up fine. Maybe prolonged sitting (more than 3-4 months) is where the issues start to crop up?

A lot has to do with the conditions the bike is stored.  The biggest problem with EtOH gas is it can (and will) separate with high humidity environments.  The more humidity, the more water vapor gets sucked out of the air.  If you had a bike with EtOH gas stored in a dry garage with the temps held steady I think the gas would last a long time before separating.  In a high humidity garage with big temp swings it won't last long before separating.  When the EtOH in the gas gets saturated with water it separates from the gas and that's when it becomes a problem as the water phase is acidic.  If you pull your float bowls and see a greenish deposit, it's a sign that the EtOH gas is doing harm. 

-P.

Thank you for the insight. Like I said, I wasn't refuting the problems you read about, it just hasn't matched my personal experience. The bike sits in my basement during the winter, so temperature and humidity changes are virtually non-existent. I cleaned the carb on our log splitter last fall. It had been sitting in the shed for several years, and there were some green deposits in the float bowl. I didn't dwell on it at the time, but maybe that was corrosion from moisture ingress. No idea what type of fuel was in it when last used. Those deposits were different than the brown varnish-like deposits I have found in old carbs that have been sitting for decades.

[PeWe]

About octane numbers, US vs Europe. Important to have in mind when talking gasoline on an international forum.
In Sweden we have max 5% ethanol in fuel. Max 98 RON. Shell V-power had 99 earlier
Except for E85 that has 85% ! About 104 octane RON, possible to crank up the boost if using turbo


Europe vs the States
https://www.etuners.gr/fuel/

In Europe, gas stations describe different types of gasoline based on their RON rating. It is typical to have 100, 99, 98, 97 or 95 RON with prices varying accordingly. In the States the descriptions look a lot like RON, but they are not.

Pump gas

In the United States gas stations describe the types of gasoline based on the Pump Octane Number (PON). That number is the average between RON and MON. This causes many problems.

If a fuel is 98 RON then it will be 93 PON -> 93 PUMP
If a fuel is 95 RON and 87 MON then it will be 91 PON -> 91 PUMP

[TwoTired]

E-10 gas has a shelf life of 6 months.  Straight gasoline has a shelf life of two years.  Ratings like these are conservative regarding replacement intervals.  So, it typically lasts longer than specified, unless it is in severe environments.  I've had E10 for the mower, stored in the outside shed (no climate control, but tightly sealed) for a year, that simply would not run the mower where new gas would.  I only made use of it after I blended it 50/50 with fresh gas (e10).  The fuel in the mower and carb corroded the internals, presumably from the alkali formed when alcohol reacts with water.  The mower tank is vented, so it "breathes" all the time, taking in humidity.  Yes, it rusted inside the tank, too.
 
I once had 4 year old gas in my airplane when I still owned it, the engine ran fine.  Aviation fuel has an even longer shelf life, though recommendations for replacement remains at two years.

There are(were) conversions for some airplanes to run on auto gas. Those are not certified with any alcohol blended fuel, only pure gas.

E10 will mostly work in automotive situations as long as you repeatedly replenishing supply.   Think of it like a shark. Must constantly move forward or it dies.  The caveate is for older fuel systems that don't have seals happy with alcohol.  Alcohol is a drying agent.  Rubber diaphragms (fuel pumps) and rubber seals get hard and crack causing failures, not seen with pure gas.  New vehicles designed to run on E10 have seals and part made of alcohol resistant materials.  Our vintage bike don't have such materials in stock form.

Most governments think you should replace your vehicle slightly less frequently than you do gasoline.  Good for the economy when citizens spend more money, for replacement or repairs.

Cheers,

[irish44395]

I got 81 miles out of the first tank of non ethonal  gas  (my reserve on the fuel valve rotted away) Thinking I would get better mileage . pulled into work shut it off and when I got off work it wouldn't start didn't give gas a thought run the battery down  had co-worker push me  still no start then  looked at the mileage on the trip thingee. once  I got more gas in it fired up  fine. I hindsight it didn't run much different just less mileage to me  not really worth extra for the gas . like others said I never had any problems with gas but non of my bikes sit. I just took one off the road to repaint  but they all get ridden every week .
Pete