Author Topic: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?  (Read 2559 times)

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Offline fxef79

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CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« on: February 27, 2020, 05:47:38 AM »
So I'm working on this CB750K (K2, I think, from the serial number).  It's a bit of a frankenstein... it's a trike with a harley rear, corbin gentry frame, CB750F front end.

I started pulling apart the ignition.  It's been converted to a Dyna S.  Then I went further back to see the condition of the advancer, and I find that it's a 333 advancer.  Isn't that from a CB350/4?  Now, I've heard of people using the 323 advancer in the CB750, but never a 333.

As far as how it runs, so far the only thing I've done is get it started and idle.  I've not had it on the road yet, so I don't know how it runs at speed with this advancer.  The PO said he rode it, and it ran great, but just one ride.  He had just bought it, and decided he actually didn't want another project.

Has anyone else heard of doing this?  A 333 advancer on a CB750K?  I've got a 300 advancer on the way, just so I have one... but I"m curious what everyone else thinks.


Offline Tomshep

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2020, 06:30:31 AM »
The 400/4 advancer advances approximately 18 degrees between 1500 and 2500 RPM. It will not be far different from the 750. The Dyna can be set up to fire at the right angle if you know this. Normally it fires around 5-7 btdc up to 1500 and 25 at 2500. Does that help?

Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2020, 08:17:27 AM »
This is definitely useful, at least in that I can now tell what the timing characteristics of this 333 advancer are.  Is there a resource that identifies what the static timing, advanced timing, and RPM, for all of the various SOHC advancers, particularly the 300?  I found this list of the models, but not the timing information.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113338.0

300     CB750.K1
323     CB500-K2
333     CB350FOUR
363     CB40FOUR
374     CB550K1-P
377     CB400.F-F2
390     CB550F.1.2
392     CB750F.1.P
393     CB750AT-A2
404     CB550K3-P3
405     CB750K7-P7
410     CB750F2.F3
425     CB750KZ-CA
426     CB650Z.PZ
445     CB750FZ.FA
460     CB650A.CA

CB750
300     CB750.K1
392     CB750F.1.P
393     CB750AT-A2
405     CB750K7-P7
410     CB750F2.F3
425     CB750KZ-CA
445     CB750FZ.FA

BTW, I just realized I screwed up on the advancer I have on the way... I misread the info and what I have on the way is a '79 advancer... so I think it's a 425... no idea what the timing is on those, or if that's even close to the SOHC needs... hell - not even sure if that advancer will match up on the shaft.... so I screwed up there.


Offline Tomshep

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2020, 10:46:35 AM »
Looks as though the 750 runs a bigger advance, 35 degrees above 2500 RPM. You could find quite a bit more at the top end  if you advance the 333 unit at the expense of lumpy response from 1100 to 1500 but it will be a good experiment. The 323 unit from the 500/4 is reckoned to be a demon tweak for these; Hondaman will probably have chapter and verse on this.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2020, 07:29:09 PM »
The K0-K5 version of the 750 had 3 different advancers, the Hitachi, the TEC early and the TEC later ones. The Hitachi has "AD125-0(n)" stamped on it (where n can be several different numbers, probably production-date related). The early TEC advancers advanced further and faster than all the others, the AD-125 a little less of both, and the TEC versions found starting in the K3 have the least total advance, while they come in 2 different static ("F") marked angles about 2 degrees further in the later engines.

Overall, today ALL of them advance too soon because the springs are all heat-annealed and too soft. This makes them advance approximately the same as the -333- series advancers. The 750 then suffers from less low-end torque, as it sparks burn-back up toward the carbs until about 2500 RPM. I always (almost 100% unless there is some good reason not to) cut at least 1/2 turn off one of the coils to slow the start-of-advance just a bit. This makes the bikes much less cold-blooded, the plugs cleaner, and they idle better because the advance is not moving back and forth at 1000 RPM, making the cylinders load up with unburned gas by disturbing the intake cycle.

Another thing to always check: the spark advancer shaft WILL be bent if someone turned the big nut CCW direction while sparkplugs were in the engine. This makes the timing 'jitter' back-and-forth under a timing light, and makes for poor running and fouled sparkplugs, too. The shaft should be re-trued to 0.002" or better. (See my book for details?).
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline dave500

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2020, 01:23:18 AM »
might be different riding a trike but dont forget?when your moving and riding these engines properly its always at full advance,your always over 3000 rpm or should be,how it reacts between 1000 and 1500 rpm is a blink of an eye,think of the advance mechanism more of a retard mechanism,it lets you start the engine easy and affords an idle,once moving your already at 3000 rpm before you know it,dont compare these to car engines when it comes to advance curves what so ever,a car engine lives between say 800 and 3000 rpm most of its life,the curve is always in play,these things easily rev to the moon compared and full advance is always reached early so to speak with in that spectrum.

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2020, 08:06:14 AM »
While advancer springs come loose and loose tension, I doubt it's from annealing.  It takes 500F to start the anneal process and typically a bit more to perform the function.  If the points area was seeing 500F, the insulation on the wires would be gone and the main seal crispied.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2020, 09:52:09 AM »
Hooke' Law

Elasticity and plasticity.
Creep, relaxation, fatigue, and deformation @ ambient temperatures
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Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2020, 10:54:53 AM »
Looks as though the 750 runs a bigger advance, 35 degrees above 2500 RPM. You could find quite a bit more at the top end  if you advance the 333 unit at the expense of lumpy response from 1100 to 1500 but it will be a good experiment. The 323 unit from the 500/4 is reckoned to be a demon tweak for these; Hondaman will probably have chapter and verse on this.

Thanks for that.  Where did you find that "35 degrees above 2500 RPM" for the 750's (#300) advancer?  Hoping to find that same info for the 333 (and maybe for the 323) advancer, so I can actually compare just how far off it might be from "ideal" using this 333, vs. going on a hunt for a good condition 300.


Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2020, 10:57:42 AM »
The K0-K5 version of the 750 had 3 different advancers, the Hitachi, the TEC early and the TEC later ones. The Hitachi has "AD125-0(n)" stamped on it (where n can be several different numbers, probably production-date related). The early TEC advancers advanced further and faster than all the others, the AD-125 a little less of both, and the TEC versions found starting in the K3 have the least total advance, while they come in 2 different static ("F") marked angles about 2 degrees further in the later engines.

Overall, today ALL of them advance too soon because the springs are all heat-annealed and too soft. This makes them advance approximately the same as the -333- series advancers. The 750 then suffers from less low-end torque, as it sparks burn-back up toward the carbs until about 2500 RPM. I always (almost 100% unless there is some good reason not to) cut at least 1/2 turn off one of the coils to slow the start-of-advance just a bit. This makes the bikes much less cold-blooded, the plugs cleaner, and they idle better because the advance is not moving back and forth at 1000 RPM, making the cylinders load up with unburned gas by disturbing the intake cycle.

Another thing to always check: the spark advancer shaft WILL be bent if someone turned the big nut CCW direction while sparkplugs were in the engine. This makes the timing 'jitter' back-and-forth under a timing light, and makes for poor running and fouled sparkplugs, too. The shaft should be re-trued to 0.002" or better. (See my book for details?).

Awesome info, thank you.

Interesting comment... "This makes them advance approximately the same as the -333- series advancers".  If I interpret that correctly, then would it be fair to say "A 'good condition' 333 advancer would effectively act like a 'word out' 300 advancer"?  Without actual numbers on the advances and RPM, it's hard to otherwise compare.

I'll definitely check the shaft.


Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2020, 11:00:14 AM »
might be different riding a trike but dont forget?when your moving and riding these engines properly its always at full advance,your always over 3000 rpm or should be,how it reacts between 1000 and 1500 rpm is a blink of an eye,think of the advance mechanism more of a retard mechanism,it lets you start the engine easy and affords an idle,once moving your already at 3000 rpm before you know it,dont compare these to car engines when it comes to advance curves what so ever,a car engine lives between say 800 and 3000 rpm most of its life,the curve is always in play,these things easily rev to the moon compared and full advance is always reached early so to speak with in that spectrum.

Good point... Not needing to "get moving" in order to establish gyroscopic balance, means its easier, I suppose, to live in lower RPM ranges on a trike, making the effect of the advancer more pronounced.  Good to know - I admit my personal experience is almost entirely in V-Twins, where the lower RPM behavior is more important.

Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2020, 11:03:37 AM »
Observation:  The Dyna S timing plate was rotated nearly ALL the way clockwise when I took it apart.  It will start and eventually idle.  But it hasn't been (by me) run on the road up to any kind of speed, since it's still on a lift.  I'm guessing maybe the reason the PO had to rotate the plate that far is to compensate for the behavior of the 333 advancer?  I'm thinking Tomshep's comment "You could find quite a bit more at the top end  if you advance the 333 unit at the expense of lumpy response from 1100 to 1500 but it will be a good experiment." might be what I would experience if I put this thing on the road with that 333, and with the plate rotated that far clockwise.

Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2020, 11:05:46 AM »
Question - and this is the NON-mechanic engineer in me asking a question...

If you don't actually know the total advance any particular advancer might provide, can you determine this simply by marking the cam position, then turning it by hand until the weights reach their stops, and marking that position, and literally measuring that amount of rotation with a protractor?


Offline Tomshep

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2020, 11:12:58 AM »
Yes.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2020, 12:44:17 PM »
Question - and this is the NON-mechanic engineer in me asking a question...

If you don't actually know the total advance any particular advancer might provide, can you determine this simply by marking the cam position, then turning it by hand until the weights reach their stops, and marking that position, and literally measuring that amount of rotation with a protractor?

One of these can show total advance as your engine will see it..
Quick and easy, too...
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Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2020, 01:25:19 PM »
Now that's useful!

showing my age... no idea that existed.  Only timing light I've ever had only had ONE control.. a trigger to turn on the light.

:)

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2020, 01:51:57 PM »
Timing lights similar above and below were real popular in the later 60's and affordable by the late 70's. They were helpful tuning SBC and BBC.  Especially  when mechanically limiting the total centrifugal adv,  allowing as much initial timing as the starter would bear. Or when running locked  down magneto timing.

Some earlier offerings similar to the one below were known for slow electronic circuitry that produced high rpm timing errors. Hot Rod used to test timing lights back in the day and publish their timing errors in degrees @ rpm. The very old 70s chrome Sears Craftmen were one of the most accurate at the time.

You may be able to rent one..😃
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2020, 04:19:25 PM »
Hooke' Law

Elasticity and plasticity.
Creep, relaxation, fatigue, and deformation @ ambient temperatures

And don't forget plain and simple wear.  The spring wire is round forming a single point contact on a pin.   Heck back when these things new but had any miles on them, the advance mechanisms needed tweaking.   Heck for me it was part of the tuneup to check and adjust.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2020, 06:32:07 PM »
Looks as though the 750 runs a bigger advance, 35 degrees above 2500 RPM. You could find quite a bit more at the top end  if you advance the 333 unit at the expense of lumpy response from 1100 to 1500 but it will be a good experiment. The 323 unit from the 500/4 is reckoned to be a demon tweak for these; Hondaman will probably have chapter and verse on this.

Thanks for that.  Where did you find that "35 degrees above 2500 RPM" for the 750's (#300) advancer?  Hoping to find that same info for the 333 (and maybe for the 323) advancer, so I can actually compare just how far off it might be from "ideal" using this 333, vs. going on a hunt for a good condition 300.

There's several ways you can measure them: the simplest is with a protractor (just measure the angle between "F" mark and the advance marks). You can use a setback timing light (or borrow one for a day). Or. you can install a crank degree wheel and use it like a protractor, etc.

I've been testing them for 50 years...
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
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Offline scottly

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2020, 08:49:08 PM »
 If the ignition plate is fully clockwise, it is retarded; maybe whoever installed it as well? ::)
I have used a rotary table to accurately measure the marks on the advancers. Both the Hitachi on my K1 and the TEC from a K7 have the same specs: the F mark is 10* before the T mark, and the full advance marks are at 34* and 36*.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2020, 09:33:19 PM »
Maybe the PO set the ignition for idle only?
Sloppy springs will advance too early so retarding the plate will fix that. Another thing when full advance mark will line up?

I should cut the springs 1/2 wound, reshape them and set ignition F correctly to case mark at 1200 rpm, see how full advance happen at 2600 rpm something.
I had to do that on both my CB750. 
My last stock K2 build, I could not adjust the plate late enough to get F correct at Idle (just a little too advanced). Spring cut made it possible. I had set points at max gap too.
I verified case mark and T at TDC before.
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Offline Tomshep

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2020, 11:36:29 PM »
It's all a bit twentieth century. I spent a quiet evening last week designing a simple system around published data and an Arduino Nano that works out when the engine will be 5 milliseconds before the firing point before turning the coil on. That allows the coil to saturate at max rpm so that is all you need. The result is a large reduction in current drawn  and cooler running coils. Although it consigns points. And condenser to history, it should work better than the standard offering. The advancer will be set up by maths initially and could be tuned on the pc if I become sufficiently enthused. Three pickups will be used, optical because they are easier to fit. The time over 72 degrees gets measured to learn engine speed. That gives the time to work it all out. Now the bike is running, I shall get on with it.

Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2020, 09:42:42 AM »
Swapped the 333 advancer with a 300 advancer (I also located an AD125 HItachi, but to put the Dyna magnet on it I'd have to tap out the pin the holds the cam - not ready to munge this advancer up, yet, so I can let someone else have it if I don't need it).

Static timed using a probe light, and the plate is no longer rotated all the way clockwise... and it started right up (after I took care of some other carb and battery issues, of
course).

I have an advance timing light on the way, so I can actually measure the true advance I'm getting at idle and at speed.


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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2020, 09:41:39 PM »
Observation:  The Dyna S timing plate was rotated nearly ALL the way clockwise when I took it apart.  It will start and eventually idle.  But it hasn't been (by me) run on the road up to any kind of speed, since it's still on a lift.  I'm guessing maybe the reason the PO had to rotate the plate that far is to compensate for the behavior of the 333 advancer?  I'm thinking Tomshep's comment "You could find quite a bit more at the top end  if you advance the 333 unit at the expense of lumpy response from 1100 to 1500 but it will be a good experiment." might be what I would experience if I put this thing on the road with that 333, and with the plate rotated that far clockwise.

Yep, you're getting onto it now..
The advancers are all interchanged for differing performance rates, and Dave500 is right on the nut when he states these are really a "retarder unit" instead of an "advancer" unit, as these engines would NEVER idle if the advancer was more than 15 degrees at 1000 RPM. The general overview goes like this: the full advance should arrive at the same time the intake valve closes against 'burnback' from the waste-cycle spark these engines have, which is the fuel-air mix burning back toward the carbs. The plug sparks in between exhaust-intake cycle ('overlap' cycle) due to the dual-coil design, which makes it imperative that the timing is not too far advanced while this happens. If it is too advanced, then this cylinder, which is just starting to take in a charge, can light that charge off, burning it partway as it also inhales it (burning it back toward the carb - 'burnback'). This lowers the power for that next power stroke, as part of the charge is already used up, and it is also heating too early and trying to resist the upcoming compression stroke as the result. The difference is dramatic when one that is advancing too fast is modified to either retard the spark totally, or slowed down until the charge can be 'clean' (not ignited) coming in: the engine always then produces more low-end torque.

So, I suspect the -333- advancer, with its less total advance, was probably used on a heavy machine like yours so as to increase the low end torque. It also sacrificed some higher-end HP, though, so installing an advancer that is slower but has more total advance angle is a good idea here, to get that power back again at higher revs. I would recommend using a -300- or -323- with at least 1/2 turn cut from both springs, or as on my own 750 engine with the fully hemi'd head and porting, 1 full turn off one spring and 1/2 turn off the other for full advance at 4000 RPM instead of closer to 3000. This will also allow for use of Regular grade gas without ping at any speed, even under heavy loads, which will bring out more torque until you achieve the RPM where the octane has burned off before the bottom-of-stroke: this is usually around 5500 RPM with the intake valve opening around 3-5 degrees BTC. If the cam opens later than that then this power cycle moves up in the RPM band (like in the "F" and K7/8 cams) to more like 6200 RPM, which is probably not ideal on a heavier machine like a trike. If yours opens later (worn cam chain components also cause this) then a slower spark advance is even more important for low-end torque. If you feel the top-end power is falling off around 5500 then step up a notch on the octane and try again until it becomes more linear: too much octane with too slow spark advance makes for a colder-running engine at lower speeds and fouls the plugs faster. Ethanol makes this worse, BTW, because it burns slower than pure gasoline...
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2020, 03:14:11 AM »
WOW... that’s awesome information!  So much there to digest - I’ll probably re-read that a bunch more times to make sure I get it all. Thank you! 

Maybe it’s for the best I didn’t put in the Hitachi Ad125 advancer I found... I just swapped the -333- with a -300-, and I’ll be dynamically timing it this weekend. I really hope to have this thing down off the lift by end of this weekend to get some “seat of the pants dyno” testing as well as confirm the exact advance I’m getting with the current state of the weights and springs.

Offline WhyNot2

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2020, 05:01:53 AM »
WOW... that’s awesome information!  So much there to digest - I’ll probably re-read that a bunch more times to make sure I get it all. Thank you! 

Maybe it’s for the best I didn’t put in the Hitachi Ad125 advancer I found... I just swapped the -333- with a -300-, and I’ll be dynamically timing it this weekend. I really hope to have this thing down off the lift by end of this weekend to get some “seat of the pants dyno” testing as well as confirm the exact advance I’m getting with the current state of the weights and springs.

Exactly, about the info.........probably have to read it several times myself.

And what you're working on is exactly what I'm doing, and hoping to get some seat time in too.

If I don't get lazy.
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Offline fxef79

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Re: CB750K has a 333 spark advancer?
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2020, 06:15:03 AM »
If I don't get lazy.

I have not been given that luxury. This is the wife’s bike, and I’ve been delivered a strident request.

If it weren’t for that, my nature would be to spend lots of time fiddling with every little detail. That, or get far too involved in major rebuild that probably isn’t necessary.