Topic: 77 CB550K Points Lubrication Areas?

[Maraakate]

* Points are original, and I see that you can still get TEC ones direct from Honda.
* I am interested in the transistor ignition.  I can build things from schematics quite easily, is there a forum post somewhere with the actual schematics?  Looks like something that can be fabbed up fairly easily in a metal project box for the heatsink.

I've copied the Velleman K2543 kit that is very popular among owners of vintage bikes and cars. You need two ofcourse for our type of distributorless ignitions. If you do an advanced search here with 'Velleman K2543' and 'Deltarider', I'm sure you'll find all you need. There were/are only a few of those power transistors around, the heart of the system. IIRC Texas Instruments was the first to develop this type of transistor especially for the auto industry, the TIP162. The other type I know is the BU931P. Both were specifically designed for first generation automotive electronic ignitions. Don't worry about that silly heat sink. The diecast box and lid can serve as heat sink. Mine has proved very reliable indeed. After some 10-15 years some wires outside the unit had hardened and I had to replace them by new supple wire. 

Curious how you knew the cam chain tensioner needed replaced.  This is something I want to be able to look out for.  How did you know it was time for new rings?

Well, I didn't. The mec thought that now the engine was 'open', it was a common thing to do. I didn't know much at the time.

Thanks for the tips.  I will do some searching on the forums for the kit and schematics.

[bryanj]

OK, having read all this i will chime in.
Camchain tensioner mechanisms last forever UNLESS the small bolt is forced, tensioner blades i would change when cam chain is changed, usually on a full strip for some other reason. Primary chain on 500 needs changing when it has worn into crank case oilway, 550 is cast slightly different so chain only touches if very worn, change dampers in primary at same time.
If it says anything i am fitting one of Marks(hondamans) sets to my rebuild and i used to do a lot of Vellman kits for my old cars.
I have never seen a 500 or 550 bore worn enough to need rebore but a lot of rebores due to owner abuse and siezing, likewise cranks, i have only ever seen one worn and that again was owner abuse, lack of oil and changes..

Hope that essay helps

[Deltarider]

Thanks Bryanj for regularly informing us from practice. As an amateur I can only pass on what collegues of you has learned me back then. When I had opened my CB500 at 80.000 km (I foolishly thought it was necessary) and brought it to a pro for inspection and measuring, the first thing the mec said, was: why did you take it apart? From what I later have learned from others: the bottom end is practically indestructible. Camchain tensioner in itself is maybe not a bad design. It's a bit flimsy IMO and insensitive to work. An amateur does not feel whether he has done it right or not. There's no feedback so to say and that's why many cannot resist to go at the tensioner bolt, the more when such is described in the Clymer manual. There are more errors in that manual. Having said that, I wonder if there's anything against the method described on p 3-7 of a CB650 maintenance manual. To me it looks the tensioner system is identical. Have a look below if you like. Haven't tried this yet myself, but if there's nothing against it, it could well be the optimal method.
Anyway, what ever you do, do not follow what is described in the CB500K3/550K3 Owner's Manual and do it with an idling engine. You will never get it right! Maybe it was a copy and paste by mistake from some manual that covers another bike.

[bryanj]

650 method is basically same as mine, i just dont bother to have the crank rotating. If you actually rotate it is is possible to lock up the tensioner on a part of revolution where the cam has "sprung" over a lobe and the front run has slack, which is not what you want.
The only problems with 500 bottom ends is primary chain wearing oil gallery and centre gear selector. I dont count loose chain breaking pushrod as that doesnt need cases split

[Deltarider]

650 method is basically same as mine, i just dont bother to have the crank rotating. If you actually rotate it is is possible to lock up the tensioner on a part of revolution where the cam has "sprung" over a lobe and the front run has slack, which is not what you want.

I also did notice the service manual tells you to adjust the chain at 15 BTDC (iirc) but the book just says to line it up with the T mark and be on your merry way.  Why is this, what's the difference?

The second quote is a question by Maraakate. BTW, where he says 15 BTDC, I assume he means 15^o ATDC. Also I have wondered why there is this fifteen degrees difference between the Owner's Manual CB500K1 (p.48)* and the Shop Manual CB500-550 (p.13).
Doing your method (also practised by Honda mecs I knew), it may be difficult for an amateur to determine whether he exercises enough force or not. So, after reading  the CB650 manual, I got the idea of combining the three methods.
1. Set the crankshaft to T.D.C of the compression stroke with the kick pedal according to p.48 in the Owner's Manual CB500K1*
2. Loosen he lock nut and apply some force on the crank clockwise (your method) allowing it very, very slowly to move (method CB650) but not further than 15 ATDC (method Shop Manual CB500-550).
3. In this traject from T.D.C to 15 ATDC tighten the lock nut.

The only problems with 500 bottom ends is primary chain wearing oil gallery...

As you know I have volunteered to see how far it will go. My primary drive chain has done 136.000kms (85.000 miles) and I have no illusions that the chain will have chafed a bit of the crankcase. Am I worried? Mwah... wouldn't disaster have struck long time ago already? We'll see.
Now the chain that I am worried about is the @%$&!! camchain. The actual one has done 56.000kms (35.000 miles) and because it was already the 3rd it has always received the prescribed care. But... if I'm not mistaken, it has reached the end of its lifetime. Again! That's why I hate that chain and its tensioner. I wonder what experience others have. What is a realistic lifespan for such a camchain?
*http://www.honda4fun.com/pdf_libretti/500/CB500_k1/CB500_K1_3.pdf

[grcamna2]

subscribed

[Maraakate]

Yes, I meant to say 15deg ATDC.  Didn't have the manual in front of me.

I found an older post where you posted the schematic to the Velleman K2543 box.  I've attached it in case the link disappears some day.  The only thing I do not know is where the "1, 2, 3, 4" points go to in regards to the schematic.  Otherwise, looks very easy to build.

[jlh3rd]

I've read all four methods, manual, clymer, bryanj, delta. I don't see where any of them are wrong. Clymer is the more complicated but accomplishes the same thing.
     In a nutshell, tension is needed on the front side of the cam chain between the cam and crankshaft, right? This leaves slack at the back side of the cam chain. Now loosen the locknut, the slotted screw moves clockwise ( tightens) on its own.....in a perfect world......if the screw is not frozen. Clymer says to back the screw out (counterclockwise) if it is frozen, and then let it self adjust inwards.
     Where people screw up is turning the slotted screw inwards(clockwise) manually. But that locknut needs to move freely on its own threads or it will turn that screw........so...
      What would be wrong with loosening that locknut and making sure it turns freely on the screw threads. Then backing the screw adjuster out ( counterclockwise) only to make sure it moves freely. Then clockwise pressure on the crankshaft with your right hand and a socket on the points crank nut, let the adjuster do its thing, and snug the locknut with your left hand.....Do you even need to be at TDC or 15 degrees ATDC?.......plugs out might make it easier.....
     Just throwing it out there.....because I want to know....

[Maraakate]

I've read all four methods, manual, clymer, bryanj, delta. I don't see where any of them are wrong. Clymer is the more complicated but accomplishes the same thing.
     In a nutshell, tension is needed on the front side of the cam chain between the cam and crankshaft, right? This leaves slack at the back side of the cam chain. Now loosen the locknut, the slotted screw moves clockwise ( tightens) on its own.....in a perfect world......if the screw is not frozen. Clymer says to back the screw out (counterclockwise) if it is frozen, and then let it self adjust inwards.
     Where people screw up is turning the slotted screw inwards(clockwise) manually. But that locknut needs to move freely on its own threads or it will turn that screw........so...
      What would be wrong with loosening that locknut and making sure it turns freely on the screw threads. Then backing the screw adjuster out ( counterclockwise) only to make sure it moves freely. Then clockwise pressure on the crankshaft with your right hand and a socket on the points crank nut, let the adjuster do its thing, and snug the locknut with your left hand.....Do you even need to be at TDC or 15 degrees ATDC?.......plugs out might make it easier.....
     Just throwing it out there.....because I want to know....

Not sure why everyone says to take the plugs out.  It's really not that hard to bump the kickstarter lever or am I missing something on the 750s compared to the 550s?

[jlh3rd]

i'm guessing that unless someone understands engines and what we're trying to do here, plugs out enables the newbie to " feel" when the cam chain tightens as opposed to confusing that with a piston in the act of compressing. And makes it easier to get to TDC or the 15 degrees ATDC........( is that even needed?)
   

[Maraakate]

Not sure why this is so hard.  I just did the cam chain adjustment when I did the valves.  From what I understand you just loosen the nut when the marks align in regards to Cylinder 1 and then retighten.  Don't touch the flathead screwdriver bolt.  You reach the T mark by bumping the kickstarter.  You get a feel for it once you've done the valves.  Leave the valve inspection covers off and when you reach the T mark where the valves for Cylinder 1 are adjustable then loosen the adjuster.  However, if you want to do the 15deg ATDC then once you reach that point where Cylinder 1 is adjustable at TDC just bump the kick starter very slowly until you reach the 15deg ATDC.  You should be able to do this without any special tools or having to remove spark plugs.

[Maraakate]

Also, there was a post in here about some other ways to adjust that cam chain; and you can do them and they probably work fine.  But for me personally, just doing the way the book says in regards with my instructions I just posted is probably enough for most people.  But the flat rate shop way of doing it is interesting and probably worth knowing if you have to do a lot of bikes.

[Deltarider]

Let me confess that I am still in the process of trying to understand why Honda confused us with several methods for adjustment, but never sought to modify the tensioner.
Let's start with the Owner's Manuals. At the time when you bought a new CB500 or CB550, there was such a manual under the seat. It had a maintenance scheme and also explained what you could do yourself.
In the first Owner's Manual that I had (p.48), the procedure was:
   a. Set the crankshaft to T.D.C of the compression stroke with the kick pedal
   b. Adjustment is made by loosening the tensioner lock nut. This will automatically release the tensioner bolt, applying the proper tension to         the cam chain.
   c. After completing the adjustment, tighten the lock nut.
      Source: http://www.honda4fun.com/pdf_libretti/500/CB500_k1/CB500_K1_3.pdf
Simple? Well, no... a. it doesn't specify what T.D.C is ment and c. leaves us wondering what there is to 'complete', if the process is supposed to be 'automatical'. Furthermore the method is not consistent with the procedure in the Shop Manual CB500-550 (p.13) where the crankshaft is in the position 15^o ATDC.
In the next Owner's Manual in time, that happens to cover my model, the CB500K2-ED (marketed in 1976), there's NO information on adjusting the camchain. Why is that? All the other maintenance info like ignition timing and adjusting the valve tappet clearance is still present. Strange.
Source: http://www.honda4fun.com/pdf_libretti/500/CB500_75/libretto500_1.pdf
Finally the Owner's Manual that deals with the K3, both the CB500 as well as the 550.
On p.68 we read:
   1. Start the engine and maintain it at idle speed (1,050 rpm).
   2. Loosen the tensioner lock nut and tensioner bolt. When they are loosened, the cam chain tensioner will automatically position itself to             provide the correct cam chain tension.
   3. Retighten the tensioner bolt and lock nut.
      Source: http://www.honda4fun.com/pdf_libretti/500/CB500_550/CB500_550_06.pdf
Confusion again. Under 2. one could conclude that the bolt also needs loosening, the more when we read under 3. Retighten the tensioner bolt and lock nut. We know this is not right. We are not supposed to touch that bolt. Why did Honda decide to go dynamically, remains a mystery.
So, overseeing the differences on the matter in three consecutive owner manuals, we wonder:
What made Honda decide to omit the instructions in manual #2?
Why did Honda inform us owners again and advised to do it with a running engine in manual #3?
This against the background that Honda mechanics in The Netherlands and the UK had learned a different approach that we here now know as 'Bryanj's method'.
Please realise that the camchain and its tensioner system is a hundred % identical for all CB500/550 models: from the very first CB500 up to the last model CB550K4. I realise that this post has not much to do with the original subject anymore, so I've decided to copy this post to a new thread: Confusion about the CB500/550 camchain tensioning.

 

[Maraakate]

OK, please link to the new thread as I do not see it.