Author Topic: New Engine locked up  (Read 4806 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
New Engine locked up
« on: June 04, 2020, 01:05:50 PM »
So, I took my newly built CB750 K2 out for a test ride and the engine seized up on me about a half mile out.  And before I go crazy and start to take everything apart again, I’m looking for advice.  Here is the breakdown of what happened (no pun intended).

During assembly of the engine, with the head cover off, I checked the oil pressure with a gage and observed oil reaching the heads.  I don’t recall what the oil pressure was exactly, but it was fine.  I was using the starter motor to crank the engine, and watched for oil to begin to seep up.  Once I saw some oil, I stopped, buttoned up the head, and put the engine into the frame.  The engine then sat for about nine months as I did not have the time to mess with the wiring; however, that changed with the COVID lock-down.  I sorted the wire and a few other things one the bike to compete it.

The engine started fine.  No unusual noise.  I could start it with either the electric start or the kick start.  At first I only ran the bike to sync the carbs and adjust the timing a bit.  I would say it ran approximately 30 minutes on and off over the course of 2 or 3 days.  There was some smoke coming off the headers, which I had wrapped, so did not think too much of this as it is likely just some trapped moisture or maybe some oil residue burning off.  I also noticed an oil leak on the alternator side, but was not too worried about it either.  I suspected the alternator wire plug was leaking a bit, and I would get to that later.  I then took it for a few short spins around the parking lot up to third gear to make sure the gear box was fine.  No problems. 

I later took it down the street, listening for noise and running it through its gears.  Just a short run, maybe half a mile.  Still no problems.  A few days later thinking of making a longer run, I checked the oil and saw that it was pretty low, so added more until it was mid-level on the dip stick assuming that the oil leak had depleted the oil that was present.  Yep, I didn’t take into account that the oil will drain down into the sump.  I took the bike out for a longer ride around the neighborhood – about 2 miles.  The bike was smoking more than it was before.  Around the head/headers, and when I opened the oil reservoir some smoke came out as well which concerned me (and of course, there was now too much oil as the pump circulated the oil that had drained down into the sump.

No sure about the smoking oil, I took a few days and looked over comments here on the forum and found that smoking engines are not a problem if they are new builds and to expect some smoke from the oil if the reservoir cap is opened.  OK, great.  I needed to get to that oil leak anyway, so I drained the oil and adjusted the alternator wire rubber grommet.  The rubber is a bit hard, so after re-installing the cover, I added some silicone to the outside of the cover (not inside where the oil is) to shore up the rubber grommet/wires.  New oil was added.

As this is a newly built bike it does not have a license plate and the DMV here is shut down for COVID, so I was not riding it.  It sat for about a week.  Last weekend I decided to take it for another longer test ride around the neighborhood – mostly to make sure the leak was fixed and that I had the proper amount of oil in it. 

When I started it this time I heard a high-pitched squeaking that went in time with the engine rotation.  I listened to it for about a minute as the bike warmed up and I got my helmet and gloves on.  It concerned me, but I thought that maybe it is because I had drained the oil and refilled the reservoir, which now had drained to the sump, and it is likely that the pump was sending oil to the engine.  So I took off, but was conscious that it had started making the sound.  I could no longer hear it with my helmet on and the increase in RPMs as the engine worked.  I got about a half mile away in third gear when heard the engine die, and I immediately grabbed the clutch, shifting down to neutral.  Tired to restart and heard the starter engage the gears, but nothing.  I checked the kicker.  Locked.  So, I pushed it back home to be sad.

I pulled the plugs to have a look at them – a little sooty, and looked down into the cylinders with an endoscope.  Cylinders 1nd 4 were near the top, so I couldn’t see much there.  2 and 3 showed a little scoring, but nothing terrible – no pieces of rings or scorching.  There was oil in the reservoir, so the pump at least returned the oil to it.

Last night, I went into the garage and just hit the starter to hear what it was doing.  Surprisingly, the engine turned over.  The plugs are still out and I had removed the gas tank.  I checked the kick starter and it did not want to budge – I did not try to crank on it.
What are your thoughts?  I can only assume lack of oil to the cylinders.  Could there be a passage blocked to them, yet still return to the reservoir?  Issues elsewhere?  Not really looking forward to having to take this whole thing apart gain.

Offline minimo

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,202
  • 1977 CB550F 1975 CB400F 1959 Ducati 200 Americano
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2020, 01:52:28 PM »
A couple of things worrisome here:

1) newly rebuilt engine
2) screeching noise from engine

Are you sure you didn’t leave out any parts, ehem, like the transmission gear bearing set rings? These are the half ring-shaped parts that set into a groove on the bearing and keys into another groove on the crankcase. If not careful on the reassembly of engine parts, these set rings can sometimes be omitted (unintentionally) and the result sounds something like an engine seizure as you described. Don’t ask me how I know.

Drop the oil pan to see if there are any shards. Are they magnetic? What do the shards look like?

Or, it sounds like you may have mangled piston rings which might make sense as you’re able to get the bike started again, but there is likely a loss of power and lots of blow-by, if there’s any oil left in your engine ;-)

Good thing you made it home safely to tell the tale.

But in whatever case, looks like it’s time to start peeling the engine apart again; I’d start with the oil pan to see if there’s any sign of parts casualties.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2020, 02:09:28 PM »
A couple of things worrisome here:

1) newly rebuilt engine
2) screeching noise from engine

Are you sure you didn’t leave out any parts, ehem, like the transmission gear bearing set rings? These are the half ring-shaped parts that set into a groove on the bearing and keys into another groove on the crankcase. If not careful on the reassembly of engine parts, these set rings can sometimes be omitted (unintentionally) and the result sounds something like an engine seizure as you described. Don’t ask me how I know.

Drop the oil pan to see if there are any shards. Are they magnetic? What do the shards look like?

Or, it sounds like you may have mangled piston rings which might make sense as you’re able to get the bike started again, but there is likely a loss of power and lots of blow-by, if there’s any oil left in your engine ;-)

Good thing you made it home safely to tell the tale.

But in whatever case, looks like it’s time to start peeling the engine apart again; I’d start with the oil pan to see if there’s any sign of parts casualties.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the reply, but: 

1) All new bearings, as well as gaskets, o-rings, and anything else that looked worn were replaced.  And the transmission is fine.  The engine was not turning over while in neutral.
2) As stated, the bike ran for approximately 45 in to an hour before this issue with the noise.  Prior to that, there was no noise. 
3) There was no metal flakes or other debris when I changed the oil to fix the leak from the alternator.
4) the bike is NOT running.  Like I said, I took the plugs out and the gas tank off the other day.  Last night I hit the starter to get a better ear on the lock up, and the engine turned.  However, I then checked the kicker and it did not wish to turn - that is, the starter was putting enough torque out to turn the engine, but it probably should not have been done as there is significant resistance when I try to turn it manually with the kick starter.
5) No blow past seen when looking into the cylinders - just some minor scaring on the walls of the cylinders I could see at the time.  I have sent the endoscope back down the cylinders since the first check.

My plan, unless anyone else has suggestions is to drain the oil and drop the pan as suggested to have a look there.  I may remove the pump to test it, but as mentioned, it seems to be circulating the oil at least back to the oil bag.  I'll take a look at the circulation schematic. 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 02:20:15 PM by BoneDigger »

Offline minimo

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,202
  • 1977 CB550F 1975 CB400F 1959 Ducati 200 Americano
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2020, 02:22:30 PM »
These are the Bearing Set Rings Im referring to:


Without these in place, any amount of gear shifting with throw the gear assembly off in a way that would likely cause engine seizure.

But hopefully this was not the result.

My presumption now would be broken piston rings and possible a shard of that getting logged into the kickstart gears preventing the kickstart to move.

Perhaps, while you have the oil pan off, get one of those bendable telescoping magnets and fish up and around and see if any loose parts come up. Maybe even fish thru the oil fill hole, since the kickstart is right around there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,508
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2020, 03:42:15 PM »
 Usually a screeching can be a top end cam/holders going dry and it can seize the engine especially when hot. Are you saying that the kick start will turn the engine but its very stiff or is it totally locked up ? Sounds like you gave the engine a lot of detail so hopefully something more minor but still very depressing. Sorry your having the issue.

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2020, 04:09:43 PM »
Usually a screeching can be a top end cam/holders going dry and it can seize the engine especially when hot. Are you saying that the kick start will turn the engine but its very stiff or is it totally locked up ? Sounds like you gave the engine a lot of detail so hopefully something more minor but still very depressing. Sorry your having the issue.

No, the kickstart does not turn the engine.  The starter can.  when I try the kickstart I feel resistance beyond what there should be, so I stop trying to turn the engine with it (don't want to damage the kickstart by applying too much force to it).

My guess, is what you eluded t0 - top end issue/lack of oil.  What should I look for if this is the issue?

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,512
  • Central Texas
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2020, 04:23:23 PM »
Usually a screeching can be a top end cam/holders going dry and it can seize the engine especially when hot. Are you saying that the kick start will turn the engine but its very stiff or is it totally locked up ? Sounds like you gave the engine a lot of detail so hopefully something more minor but still very depressing. Sorry your having the issue.

 What should I look for if this is the issue?

Look for blocked passages.   Did you have the cases blasted before it was rebuilt?

Your going to have to tear it apart and do the investigating...been there! 
My issue was easy to find, there was a 3" hole in the case!! [caused by rod nut]
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline jakec

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,098
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2020, 04:33:44 PM »
When rebuilding my 400 transmission I rebuilt the oil pump with new O rings. I ended up screwing something up and had to take the transmission back apart. I pulled off the oil pump and one of the two main O rings that goes in or out of the main impeller was cut in half because it fell out of  place while installing. If I didn't catch that I think the bike would have had zero oil to the top end. Maybe this happened to you.

Another question since you did a full rebuild is maybe you didn't sufficiently clean the vapor blasting debris?
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline minimo

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,202
  • 1977 CB550F 1975 CB400F 1959 Ducati 200 Americano
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2020, 04:53:15 PM »
On the rebuild and replacement of parts, I didn’t see you mention, but did you also replace the cam chain? How was the condition of the tensioner?

While up on the center stand, does the kickstart engage with the rear wheel in any gear? Hopefully, it’s just and issue with your kickstart assembly, maybe the spring not engaging and jamming the gears.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2020, 06:28:38 PM »
Look for blocked passages.   Did you have the cases blasted before it was rebuilt?

Your going to have to tear it apart and do the investigating...been there! 
My issue was easy to find, there was a 3" hole in the case!! [caused by rod nut]
[/quote]

Yes, the engine was blasted.  I had the holes all tapped up or otherwise blocked, but you never know.  If this is the case and I end up trying to find a blocked passage, any one have any tricks they use for this?

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2020, 06:30:36 PM »
When rebuilding my 400 transmission I rebuilt the oil pump with new O rings. I ended up screwing something up and had to take the transmission back apart. I pulled off the oil pump and one of the two main O rings that goes in or out of the main impeller was cut in half because it fell out of  place while installing. If I didn't catch that I think the bike would have had zero oil to the top end. Maybe this happened to you.

Another question since you did a full rebuild is maybe you didn't sufficiently clean the vapor blasting debris?

Thanks for the advise.  I do think it is an oil issue.  At least I can check the pump first before an entire engine tear down. 

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2020, 06:37:57 PM »
On the rebuild and replacement of parts, I didn’t see you mention, but did you also replace the cam chain? How was the condition of the tensioner?

While up on the center stand, does the kickstart engage with the rear wheel in any gear? Hopefully, it’s just and issue with your kickstart assembly, maybe the spring not engaging and jamming the gears.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The cam chain and tensioner were in good condition.  In fact, most of the engine was in good condition when I got it.  It was non-running, but with a fried electrical system.  I took everything apart to check on its condition anyway.  Don't have a center stand with it, but right now it is on a jack with the rear wheel lifted and in neutral.  As I said, the kicker does not rotate the engine.  It shifts fine.  I think the sound came from the front end of the bike, so I'm guessing top end.  The sound was also repetitive with the RPMs as the engine turned, like something going on with the pistons.  Looks lie I got a weekend project.

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,532
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2020, 06:39:35 PM »
First thing I would do is pull off the tappet covers and try to see if there is oil. The orifices that feed the cam and top end are easily plugged up.

PS I can supply a frame kit that will make it possible to remove the cam cover with the engine in the frame. :)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline minimo

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,202
  • 1977 CB550F 1975 CB400F 1959 Ducati 200 Americano
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2020, 06:39:44 PM »
Sounds like fun! Definitely been there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,508
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2020, 07:00:46 PM »
Well the fact the engine will turn over with the electric start and not the kickstart is worth investigating. Seems if it was semi-seized it would be the other way around maybe. Scottly gave good advice about taking a peek under those tappet covers for starters.

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2020, 07:28:32 PM »
Well the fact the engine will turn over with the electric start and not the kickstart is worth investigating. Seems if it was semi-seized it would be the other way around maybe. Scottly gave good advice about taking a peek under those tappet covers for starters.

Indeed.  I'll be starting with the covers, moving to the back with the chain tensioner, the alternator cover, then the oil pan, for look-sees.  Ugh!  I just cleaned my garage.

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,532
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2020, 07:39:55 PM »
I've never heard of a chain tensioner squeaking, but I have heard of dry cams squeaking. ::)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline minimo

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,202
  • 1977 CB550F 1975 CB400F 1959 Ducati 200 Americano
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2020, 07:42:02 PM »
I’ve seen and heard cam sprockets break off and the result was a sound not unlike a squeal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Online bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,192
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2020, 12:05:31 AM »
Initial reaction on locked engine shortly after rebuild is 95%of the time an oil jet has blocked and cam siezed
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,820
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2020, 03:15:21 AM »
Really bad news for you.
No issues with rings if new are installed?
Like oil rail bent scratcing bore, not properly gapped. Too much gap better than too little.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2020, 09:58:57 AM »
Last night I drained the oil.  I didn't see any shards in it.  Then took off the tappet covers starting from the right side (timing) of the bike and worked my way to the left (alternator) side.  Oil residue was present in first two, a little on the forward third, but bone dry on the aft and the last cylinder.  Looks like a blocked passage.  I hope it is only at the top end.  I'll be removing the engine this weekend.

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,532
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2020, 10:25:44 AM »
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,050
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2020, 10:43:16 AM »
Usually removing the 4 outer tapped covers will show the culprit.
 Amazinglybwhen I lbw mine up badly , most debris stayed on head. Cleaned it carefully in the cut frame. Changed the oil in the filter after 50 miles, cleaned housing and was surprised nothing was in there.. I took a good 1/8" off my cam .
 I cut the frame, got it ready forvtge kit , without removing carbs.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline BoneDigger

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2020, 10:53:07 AM »
Usually removing the 4 outer tapped covers will show the culprit.
 Amazinglybwhen I lbw mine up badly , most debris stayed on head. Cleaned it carefully in the cut frame. Changed the oil in the filter after 50 miles, cleaned housing and was surprised nothing was in there.. I took a good 1/8" off my cam .
 I cut the frame, got it ready forvtge kit , without removing carbs.

Looks like 754 wins.  Little oil getting to the left side rockers.  The rockers and cam lobes are okay, but where the cam articulates with the soft cradle, well that is screwed.  See the photos.

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,508
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: New Engine locked up
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2020, 11:11:54 AM »
 See reply #4 and we will call it a tie  ;) At least you have your problem and can now start rounding up some parts.