Author Topic: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?  (Read 10569 times)

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Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #125 on: January 02, 2021, 04:18:32 PM »
I did another one just to make sure. It's shorter, if anyone cares to take a look. Anyone have much experience testing these parts especially the regulator? It's one PITA to test. I ordered a new one and I'm wondering if I might need a stator too. Well I'll see once I test out the new regulator. I just don't know if I'm using my digital meter right or if it's faulty or what and if anyone's done this before if my slightly off readings mean I've got definitely bad parts or not. I guess at this point maybe you just gotta pop in new parts and find out?


Also I'm not sure my Clymer manual is correct with it's instructions

Below are the key points in the vid otherwise the readings looked correct. In the comments under the vid I pasted them so you can easily click on the time stamps to jump to them

0:01 how's my stator? Readings look a little high.

1:15 book says reverse test leads but my results show the inverse of what the book suggests at 3:31

2:29 and 5:07 digital meter gives thousands of ohms.

5:30 resistance a little too high?

7:52 looks like the book has it backwards with when to swap the multimeter leads according to my results

11:00 looks a little high?
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline robvangulik

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #126 on: January 03, 2021, 01:15:45 PM »
Did you ever test the AC voltage directly on the yellow leads from the alternator? When that isn't there, there isn't anything to regulate....

Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #127 on: January 03, 2021, 01:26:48 PM »
Did you ever test the AC voltage directly on the yellow leads from the alternator? When that isn't there, there isn't anything to regulate....

No, not familiar with that test. Is it done while bike is running? So you know how these wires work? I'd be curious to know how it works to better understand what I'm doing. Why three yellows?
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline bryanj

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #128 on: January 03, 2021, 02:12:10 PM »
3 yellows give you three pairs of 2 wires for 3 phase generation.
If you lablel the wires A, B and C you get
A to B
B to C
A to C

A small DC current into the rotor gives a higher AC current from the stator, the regulator alters the rotor current to alter the stator output whilst the rectifier changes the AC to DC to charge the battery and power the lights, ignitio, horn etc

EDIT

 You should get between 20 and 60 volts AC between each of the 3 pairs of yellow wires when disconnected from the loom . WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING ABOUT 3000RPM AND THE ROTOR WIRES STILL CONNECTED.

DO NOT GO OF ON A TANGENT OR MEASURE SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE IT OR YOU THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA------UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO FOLLOW SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS WHEN TESTING THERE IS NO POINT
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 02:16:22 PM by bryanj »
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #129 on: January 03, 2021, 02:57:56 PM »
3 yellows give you three pairs of 2 wires for 3 phase generation.
If you lablel the wires A, B and C you get
A to B
B to C
A to C

A small DC current into the rotor gives a higher AC current from the stator, the regulator alters the rotor current to alter the stator output whilst the rectifier changes the AC to DC to charge the battery and power the lights, ignitio, horn etc

EDIT

 You should get between 20 and 60 volts AC between each of the 3 pairs of yellow wires when disconnected from the loom . WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING ABOUT 3000RPM AND THE ROTOR WIRES STILL CONNECTED.

DO NOT GO OF ON A TANGENT OR MEASURE SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE IT OR YOU THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA------UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO FOLLOW SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS WHEN TESTING THERE IS NO POINT

Thanks! Not sure what the "tangent" talk was about as I've been following the book to a T. I'll follow your instructions though as my manual doesn't have these specific tests.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #130 on: January 04, 2021, 01:41:53 PM »
3 yellows give you three pairs of 2 wires for 3 phase generation.
If you lablel the wires A, B and C you get
A to B
B to C
A to C

A small DC current into the rotor gives a higher AC current from the stator, the regulator alters the rotor current to alter the stator output whilst the rectifier changes the AC to DC to charge the battery and power the lights, ignitio, horn etc

EDIT

 You should get between 20 and 60 volts AC between each of the 3 pairs of yellow wires when disconnected from the loom . WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING ABOUT 3000RPM AND THE ROTOR WIRES STILL CONNECTED.

DO NOT GO OF ON A TANGENT OR MEASURE SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE IT OR YOU THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA------UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO FOLLOW SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS WHEN TESTING THERE IS NO POINT


Did I read you right? As I mention I did this directly without the alligator clips and revved the engine up beyond 3k rpms and tried all combos of the yellow wires and got zero volts. Under that cover over the transmission I didn't find any issues with the wires either.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2021, 03:09:57 PM »
Anyone know if the stator and regulator for the cb750sc will work for my cb650sc? Shopping through the internet there seems to a be a lot of cross-compatibility these and other similar bikes and there's a good deal on this combo of part for the 750 I'd like to grab
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline Bodi

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #132 on: January 04, 2021, 07:00:26 PM »
Assuming you have the Innova meter you linked, it has a diode test function. I thing you select the ohms setting and push SEL to get there.
This can read three things: First, a "short" or very low resistance should read zero or close and the meter may beep. No rectifier test connection should read short. Second, it can read a voltage - usually around .05 V: this is the "forward voltage drop" of a diode under test, showing the voltage across it when it's conducting current. Third, open circuit: this is what a diode measures when connected "reverse" when it blocks current flow. I do not know what the display for this is but it's the same as for having the test leads unconnected.
So: select diode test. Connect one meter lead to the rectifier ground/negative output wire. Connect the other meter lead to each of the yellow wires one at a time (all wires disconnected from the harness!). They must all read the same: either show a forward voltage or show as open circuit. Which does not matter, just all the same. Then move the meter lead on the ground wire to the red/positive wire. Test all three yellows gain. Same deal, all three must read the same... the readings should be opposite what you had from ground but they really can't be otherwise. One reading open where you expect the forward voltage will reduce charging by about 1/3. One reading short will reduce it a bit more I think. More than one short or with an open reading where it should be the forward voltage and you'll get almost zero output power.

The CB650SC has a different alternator design than the SOHC4 engines, I haven't seen one in person. The field coil seems to be combined with the output coils and the "rotor" is in two pieces. But: the wiring diagram shows it does have a field coil so the SOHC4 750 regulator should work... although yours probably expects a ground control regulator rather than the 750's +12V control regulator. A fairly simple wiring mod can make it work, if so.

One way to test the alternator is to "full power" the field coil with a jumper wire and run the engine, but I don't know exactly how to do that on a DOHC4. Then measure power output (charge current measurement or watching battery voltage rise). If you get zero... well, I don't know.

One super important tip: after measuring current, always immediately swap the leads back to the meter's volts/ohms jacks. It's just too easy to finish measuring amps, then think "I wonder what the voltage is?" and connect the meter... best case is a blown meter fuse (always a hard to find weird size and spec) or the magic smoke comes out of the meter and it's bricked.

Offline Alan F.

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #133 on: January 04, 2021, 07:21:59 PM »
Anyone know if the stator and regulator for the cb750sc will work for my cb650sc? Shopping through the internet there seems to a be a lot of cross-compatibility these and other similar bikes and there's a good deal on this combo of part for the 750 I'd like to grab

No.

31100-426-015
Generator, AC
FITS MODELS
CB650 1979 (Z)
CB650 1979 (Z) USA
CB650 1980 (A) CANADA
CB650 1980 (A) USA
CB650 1981 (B)
CB650 1981 (B) CANADA
CB650 1981 (B) USA
CB650 1982 (C) CANADA
CB650 1982 (C) USA
CB650C 1980 (A)
CB650C 1980 (A) USA
CB650C 1981 (B)
CB650C 1981 (B) USA
CB650SC 1982 (C) CANADA
CB650SC NIGHTHAWK 1982 (C) USA

31600-460-731
Rect.assy, Reg
FITS MODELS
CB650 1981 (B)
CB650 1981 (B) CANADA
CB650 1981 (B) USA
CB650 1982 (C) CANADA
CB650 1982 (C) USA
CB650C 1981 (B)
CB650C 1981 (B) USA
CB650SC 1982 (C) CANADA
CB650SC NIGHTHAWK 1982 (C) USA

You might be able to wire it in and be fine, but it may not be plug and play.


Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2021, 08:15:40 AM »
Assuming you have the Innova meter you linked, it has a diode test function. I thing you select the ohms setting and push SEL to get there.
This can read three things: First, a "short" or very low resistance should read zero or close and the meter may beep. No rectifier test connection should read short. Second, it can read a voltage - usually around .05 V: this is the "forward voltage drop" of a diode under test, showing the voltage across it when it's conducting current. Third, open circuit: this is what a diode measures when connected "reverse" when it blocks current flow. I do not know what the display for this is but it's the same as for having the test leads unconnected.
So: select diode test. Connect one meter lead to the rectifier ground/negative output wire. Connect the other meter lead to each of the yellow wires one at a time (all wires disconnected from the harness!). They must all read the same: either show a forward voltage or show as open circuit. Which does not matter, just all the same. Then move the meter lead on the ground wire to the red/positive wire. Test all three yellows gain. Same deal, all three must read the same... the readings should be opposite what you had from ground but they really can't be otherwise. One reading open where you expect the forward voltage will reduce charging by about 1/3. One reading short will reduce it a bit more I think. More than one short or with an open reading where it should be the forward voltage and you'll get almost zero output power.

The CB650SC has a different alternator design than the SOHC4 engines, I haven't seen one in person. The field coil seems to be combined with the output coils and the "rotor" is in two pieces. But: the wiring diagram shows it does have a field coil so the SOHC4 750 regulator should work... although yours probably expects a ground control regulator rather than the 750's +12V control regulator. A fairly simple wiring mod can make it work, if so.

One way to test the alternator is to "full power" the field coil with a jumper wire and run the engine, but I don't know exactly how to do that on a DOHC4. Then measure power output (charge current measurement or watching battery voltage rise). If you get zero... well, I don't know.

One super important tip: after measuring current, always immediately swap the leads back to the meter's volts/ohms jacks. It's just too easy to finish measuring amps, then think "I wonder what the voltage is?" and connect the meter... best case is a blown meter fuse (always a hard to find weird size and spec) or the magic smoke comes out of the meter and it's bricked.


Thanks! I don't have the DOHC BTW. Mine is the 1982 SOHC one.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline bryanj

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2021, 08:27:59 AM »
The 650 has a rotor with windings and power is fed to it via two small brushes and slip rings, rather like a car alternator.
Rotors are known to be fragile, brushes wear out quickly but stators are as bullitproof as the 750,550 and 500 ones in that they do not go wrong unless physicaly damaged.
You dont need a diode tester the rectifier test procedure is simple if you follow the insructions in the HONDA  manual.
There are 4 sets of  3 tests and you get either near zerp resistance or very high resistance and intermediate or out of spec reading means its fubar.

When you tested for AC at the yellow wires did you make sure 12v dc was going to the rotor as i said?
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2021, 08:45:28 AM »
The 650 has a rotor with windings and power is fed to it via two small brushes and slip rings, rather like a car alternator.
Rotors are known to be fragile, brushes wear out quickly but stators are as bullitproof as the 750,550 and 500 ones in that they do not go wrong unless physicaly damaged.
You dont need a diode tester the rectifier test procedure is simple if you follow the insructions in the HONDA  manual.
There are 4 sets of  3 tests and you get either near zerp resistance or very high resistance and intermediate or out of spec reading means its fubar.

When you tested for AC at the yellow wires did you make sure 12v dc was going to the rotor as i said?

I thought so! Please check my reply #130 a couple posts up
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #137 on: January 19, 2021, 05:30:54 PM »
3 yellows give you three pairs of 2 wires for 3 phase generation.
If you lablel the wires A, B and C you get
A to B
B to C
A to C

A small DC current into the rotor gives a higher AC current from the stator, the regulator alters the rotor current to alter the stator output whilst the rectifier changes the AC to DC to charge the battery and power the lights, ignitio, horn etc

EDIT

 You should get between 20 and 60 volts AC between each of the 3 pairs of yellow wires when disconnected from the loom . WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING ABOUT 3000RPM AND THE ROTOR WIRES STILL CONNECTED.

DO NOT GO OF ON A TANGENT OR MEASURE SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE IT OR YOU THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA------UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO FOLLOW SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS WHEN TESTING THERE IS NO POINT

Suddenly now I'm only getting 15v at 3krpms or 20v at 4krpms, 25v @ 5krpms and not getting 14v at the battery at 4krpms as I was before. So something funny is up with this bike.

It's working apparently but not good enough. I checked for parasitic draw between the neg battery connection and got zero mA's. Did I do that right? Seems nothing going on there. Any ideas?

I've been having to use my "battery tender" jump starter. Very handy!

Edit : just got 14v at 6k rpms
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 05:46:53 PM by juntjoo »
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline robvangulik

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #138 on: January 20, 2021, 12:58:34 AM »
Are you now talking AC or DC?

Offline juntjoo

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Re: What's the most common cause of a weak starter?
« Reply #139 on: January 20, 2021, 03:20:51 AM »
Are you now talking AC or DC?

DC for last number. AC for high voltages
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.