Author Topic: New owner, tyre thoughts?  (Read 2515 times)

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Offline beardylondon

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New owner, tyre thoughts?
« on: October 28, 2021, 02:13:13 AM »
Hi All

Long time reader of the forum, my first post!

I have read loads of tyres threads, some 10 years old, some newer, and I would like some help please.

I recently purchased a 1976 CB550, and it has some old Dunlops on it and I need to replace them. I am in the UK and the bike will be only ridden in good weather for leisure.

I have narrowed it down to Avon RoadRider Mk2, but the age old question on sizes.

I understand no one makes the rear size of 3.75, the bike currently has a 4.00 tyre on it at moment, my question is, should I fit 100/90/18 or 110/90/18 on the rear?

Someone said wider is better, as "more rubber on the road", but someone else said nearer stock size is better for handling!

Thanks in advance.
1976 CB550

Offline flatlander

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2021, 02:25:40 AM »
roadrider mk2 is a great tyre, i can highly recommend it. probably not for those who want to get the highest possible mileage but for actual riding it's great.

best for handling is to get tyre sizes as per original spec, or as close to it as possible. avon makes them in inch sizes so better get those. there's no point in getting wider ones.
current available sizes from avon are front 19-3.25, rear 18-4.00. the 4.00 rear is the closest to the original 3.75 that you can get.

here's a thread with a whole lot of info on tyre sizes: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,185154.0.html

Offline beardylondon

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2021, 03:26:04 AM »
Thanks, I'm in the UK and they do not quote inch sizes, all metric...

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/avon-roadrider-mkii-motorcycle-tyre-2016147/?

So it's either 100/90/18 or 110/90/18
1976 CB550

Offline flatlander

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2021, 07:31:55 AM »
well i'm in the netherlands which is more metric than the UK and i can get inch sizes even here.   
random search: https://www.tyretectrading.co.uk/avon-roadrider-mkii-4-00-18-rear.html
not saying buy there, just showing that they must be available.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2021, 08:03:14 AM »
roadrider mk2 is a great tyre, i can highly recommend it. probably not for those who want to get the highest possible mileage but for actual riding it's great.



+1...Avon is a great tire [tyre!]  Get the 110mm for the rear, I use a 4.00-18 with no issues on my 550F.
I like nice wide tires but more important to have the proper rim size with them.

BTW - I always thought it was odd that these Japanese bikes came with inch-sized tires!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline beardylondon

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2021, 08:21:31 AM »
Thanks, I'm glad I asked, as there is actually a 4.00 listed in the link I sent too, I was just convinced from some blog post I read I must have to get metric equivalent!

well i'm in the netherlands which is more metric than the UK and i can get inch sizes even here.   
random search: https://www.tyretectrading.co.uk/avon-roadrider-mkii-4-00-18-rear.html
not saying buy there, just showing that they must be available.
1976 CB550

Online bryanj

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2021, 08:44:32 AM »
Inthe 70's metric sizes did not exist. In UK try M&P and personaly i prefer Metzellers, are you on the UK site?
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline flatlander

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2021, 09:02:16 AM »
tire [tyre!] 

he's in the UK so he needs a tyre, not a tire  ;D

Offline Flyin900

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2021, 12:03:31 PM »
I went through the same questions and a lengthy process, including talking with Avon in England.  I did end up using the new Avon Roadrider MK11, since it is an updated design with plenty of sizes and options available. I have a 1978 CB550K that I went with the 325-19 front tire which is correct and a 100-90-18 rear tire on Avon's recommendation. Avon indicated that this tire on the rear works out to about a 3:90 width vs the NLA 3:75-18 rear size originally used.

The issue with using a 4:00 width tire is the rear rim is only 1:85 width the same as the front rim and a 4:00 series tire is designed for a 2:15 rim width. So you end up pinching a wider tire onto a narrower rim. The result is a change in the contact patch (smaller); so a wider tire only has a larger contact patch when installed on a correct sized rim width.

Lots of guys are running these 4:00 rear tires on the narrower 1:85 rear rim, so its all about what your comfortable with and what works for you.
Common sense.....isn't so common!

1966 CL77 - 305cc - Gentleman's Scrambler
1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
1973 CB350F - Flake Matador Red - Super Sport
1975 CB400F - Parakeet Yellow - Super Sport
1976 CB400F - Varnish Blue - Super Sport
1976 GL1000 - Goldwing Standard
1978 CB550K - Super Sport
1981 GL1100 - Goldwing Standard
1982 CM450A - Hondamatic
1982 CB900C - Custom
1983 CX650E - Eurosport
1983 CB1000C - Custom X 2 Bikes now - both restored
1983 CB1100F - Super Sport - Pristine example
1984 GL1200 - Goldwing Standard

Offline TwoTired

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2021, 12:41:42 PM »
If you want the bike to handle like a new one over the life of the tire, get the same size as original or as close as you can.

All new tires will handle well when using its as-new crown radius.  It's keeping that crown radius over time and use that the handling changes.  Stock sized tires are MUCH better at keeping that tread crown radius.

Retail businesses want to keep their stock flowing, and there is really not a volume call for the old sizes, so no stock.  Especially when they can sell you a conversion to one that they have in stock.  I've yet to find a tire dealer that will refuse to special order a tire for you that they don't have in stock, though.

So, look at the manufacturer catalog, rather than the tire dealer catalog.  If a tire manufacturer offers the proper size, a dealer can get it, if you can budge them off their ass enough to stop making persuasive arguments that have worked well for them in the past.

I couldn't get the AVON site to work on my old computer.  See if they even make inch size tires.  They simply may not care enough about your antique to make proper tires for it.

However, I know that Metzeler still offers a 3.25 x 19  Lasertec for the front, and an ME-77 in 4.00 x 18 for the rear.  I get this combo for my CB550s and 750s.  And, they wear evenly and keep their tread crowns shape with normal wear.

Oversize tires usually require higher tire pressures to keep the sidewalls stiff enough to prevent tread cap shifting sideways on the rim (makes the rear of bike feel squirmy).  This also makes the tread crown puff up so that you get a flat spot across the tread.  Then when leaned over, it climbs the tread toward sidewall, forcing you to push the bars in counter steer to hold your turn line.

Then there is the aspect ratio difference between metric and inch size. 3.25 equates to 82.55mm. So, a 90 size tire is what the dealer will sell you (or even bigger to make more profit on an "up grade").  But, they aren't riding your bike, you are.  Tire dealers aren't much different than used car salesmen.  Full support to the end of the driveway.

A 3.25 is 95 to 100% of that tread width tall.  A 90 metric is only 90% of that tread width tall, or 81mm.  A shorter front tire will quicken the steering.  Sounds good, unless you prefer neutral steering without fighting the handle bars in every turn.

Bear in mind that the 550 in stock form is so neutral in handling, that it will steer reliably with hands off bars by simply leaning in the direction you wish to turn, and then straighten right up by shifting your body weight back to center.  Some of this is lost with Metric tire fitment, and a lot of it is lost with oversize tires.  All of it is lost with worn oversize metric tires.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline KennyRedman

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2021, 04:05:44 PM »
If you want the bike to handle like a new one over the life of the tire, get the same size as original or as close as you can.

All new tires will handle well when using its as-new crown radius.  It's keeping that crown radius over time and use that the handling changes.  Stock sized tires are MUCH better at keeping that tread crown radius.

Retail businesses want to keep their stock flowing, and there is really not a volume call for the old sizes, so no stock.  Especially when they can sell you a conversion to one that they have in stock.  I've yet to find a tire dealer that will refuse to special order a tire for you that they don't have in stock, though.

So, look at the manufacturer catalog, rather than the tire dealer catalog.  If a tire manufacturer offers the proper size, a dealer can get it, if you can budge them off their ass enough to stop making persuasive arguments that have worked well for them in the past.

I couldn't get the AVON site to work on my old computer.  See if they even make inch size tires.  They simply may not care enough about your antique to make proper tires for it.

However, I know that Metzeler still offers a 3.25 x 19  Lasertec for the front, and an ME-77 in 4.00 x 18 for the rear.  I get this combo for my CB550s and 750s.  And, they wear evenly and keep their tread crowns shape with normal wear.

Oversize tires usually require higher tire pressures to keep the sidewalls stiff enough to prevent tread cap shifting sideways on the rim (makes the rear of bike feel squirmy).  This also makes the tread crown puff up so that you get a flat spot across the tread.  Then when leaned over, it climbs the tread toward sidewall, forcing you to push the bars in counter steer to hold your turn line.

Then there is the aspect ratio difference between metric and inch size. 3.25 equates to 82.55mm. So, a 90 size tire is what the dealer will sell you (or even bigger to make more profit on an "up grade").  But, they aren't riding your bike, you are.  Tire dealers aren't much different than used car salesmen.  Full support to the end of the driveway.

A 3.25 is 95 to 100% of that tread width tall.  A 90 metric is only 90% of that tread width tall, or 81mm.  A shorter front tire will quicken the steering.  Sounds good, unless you prefer neutral steering without fighting the handle bars in every turn.

Bear in mind that the 550 in stock form is so neutral in handling, that it will steer reliably with hands off bars by simply leaning in the direction you wish to turn, and then straighten right up by shifting your body weight back to center.  Some of this is lost with Metric tire fitment, and a lot of it is lost with oversize tires.  All of it is lost with worn oversize metric tires.

Cheers,
Can you share a pic of one of your bikes with that Metzler combo? I might do the same.

Online bryanj

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2021, 05:17:19 PM »
Personal choice is the 3.25x19Metzeller perfect me11 with a perfect me77 rear
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2021, 05:23:42 PM »
Can you share a pic of one of your bikes with that Metzler combo? I might do the same.

Bike in my avatar is one of them. I have a Cb750F with the same tires in the storage trailer.  No pic of that, though.  I have been using Metzelers for some time Replacing Continentals, Dunlops, etc.  But, Metzeler keeps dropping the inch sized tires in other series of tires.  I think the ME77 is the only one they have left in the 4.00x18.  Used to have Lazertec for the rear and I've used the ME55 rear, too.  That latter was a pretty soft tire and wore out fairly quick.  The ME 77 has a harder compound.  I mostly only tour these days.  Though it will still scrape the pegs with aggressive riding.  The Lasertec front has a good pattern for rain.  Original tires had a ribbed design that would tend to follow grooves in roads and bridges.  It could worry a rider to panic sometimes. But, if you just let the bike wiggle where you aimed it, it wasn't really an issue.  Just don't fight it.  The Lasertecs don't have any problems with grooved roads or bridges.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Online bryanj

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2021, 06:11:35 PM »
You can get an me77 in 3.50x18 and an me11 in 3.25x19 may be listed as tubless but just fit a tube, oversizing the tyres on a 550 dont work that well
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline beardylondon

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2021, 04:49:17 AM »
There seems to be disagreement about if a 4.00/18 or 100/90/18 is the closest to stock size?

I've already ordered 4.00/18, so will just go with that, as it has that size on it already.
1976 CB550

Online bryanj

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2021, 05:39:58 AM »
400 is definately oversize on a 550 but if its alreadybought use it
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline beardylondon

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2021, 05:53:31 AM »
Well I doubt its been dispatched, so would you recommend changing to 100/90/18?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 05:57:30 AM by beardylondon »
1976 CB550

Offline Bodi

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2021, 06:03:28 AM »
"would you recommend changing too 100/90/18"
... From a 4.00-18 ... huh?

Metric sizes are tire width in mm

1 inch = 25.4mm

The 100mm tire is 3.94 inches wide. I don't think that 0.06 inches will make any difference.

Offline beardylondon

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2021, 06:08:13 AM »
I was just doing to maths (note the s) and came to that conclusion. so I'm just confused why bryanj is saying its "oversize", but I guess to 1.5mm is more!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 06:10:24 AM by beardylondon »
1976 CB550

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2021, 06:10:58 AM »
Its the different profile that matters, not the width.  Re-read TwoTireds posts please.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline beardylondon

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2021, 06:18:54 AM »
I did, I want to close to stock as poss, so 100/90 is better for the rear it seems

Flyin900 post is more useful as he said:

I have a 1978 CB550K that I went with the 325-19 front tire which is correct and a 100-90-18 rear tire on Avon's recommendation
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 06:20:30 AM by beardylondon »
1976 CB550

Online bryanj

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2021, 07:39:02 AM »
standard size was 3.60x18 so 400x18 is 1/2 inch wider which makes beads farther apart so tyre profile alters
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline beardylondon

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2021, 08:00:35 AM »
everywhere else I have read, the stock rear tyre was 3.75/18
1976 CB550

Offline goodtryer

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Re: New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2021, 08:26:22 AM »
3.75-18-4PR is what's in the service manual. Not sure if that is country-specific.

http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb500/service_manual/HSM500550_15.pdf

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Offline KennyRedman

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New owner, tyre thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2021, 09:09:55 AM »
This is what it says in the 76 550F manual: