Author Topic: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto  (Read 6406 times)

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Offline Jake88

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Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« on: February 24, 2022, 07:44:27 AM »
Hey, all.  Brand new to the forum, but have been slinking around here for a handful of years. Would like to start by saying thank you for All of the wisdom shared here that has helped me. 

This thread will be about My CB750K4 project And I will do my best to provide picture updates of where I'm at in the process. I will definitely have questions about things along the way!

This bike came from Eastern Illinois a few years ago. My wife and I were living out there at the time and after we moved all of our crap to Eastern Iowa (good to be back!), I made another trip back to grab it.  It had been sitting in a garage of a coworker since the late '90s. It was his buddy's who had passed away.  I had first seen it three years prior, at which time he made a crack about me buying it from him and I scoffed in disgust at the monstrosity! Haha.  I guess I finally convinced myself that it would be a good project and a piece of that part of my life that I could bring with me.  Apologies, I've missed a fair bit of documentation prior to this.

At this time, my intentions are not to do a full restoration. I'm going to bring everything back to stock, put some super bike handlebars on it, replace everything I need to have a running, safe bike. Do some major cleaning, but limited painting. The tank is so beat up I don't think I'll bother trying to paint it. Maybe just leave it bare for a while And look for a nice patinaed replacement in the future. This will initially be a rat bike, figured I can always take the restoration all the way in the future sometime.

This poor ugly bastard. The most obvious things that made me cringe were the long fork tubes, windjammer, saddle and sissy bar.  This bike is much older than me. Can someone tell me when this looked cool?? Ha!   The other things were the hastily painted fins, foam pad hand grips, front brake hose extension that was held together with hose clamps,  and the purple (plum?) Paint.  From what I could see on the back of the side covers, it was a beautiful orange flake at one time. Once I started stripping the tank, I got some inside as to why he may have painted it. The tank is beat to sh!t. Lots of dents especially where the Honda emblems would be. Lots of Bondo. Almost wonder if someone didn't beat the crap out of the bike at some point which necessitated The body work!  Or maybe he just took it in to get painted and the shop swapped his nice stock tank out with a beater.   Besides all of that, the bike is pretty much all there and seems to be in fairly decent condition with 24k on it.  Quite a bit of carbon and burnt oil on the Pistons / Chambers.

The spark plugs were basically welded into the head. Lots of heat and soaking allowed me to get three of them out, but low and behold I managed to twist one off leaving the threads in the head. I stripped the bike down and pulled the motor. Remove the head and cylinders. Took the head to a machine shop and had them extract the threads.

The following is probably not the"right" way to do things, but here's what I did. Piston skirts measured in spec.  Cylinders appeared to be in good shape. Measured cylinder as best I could with micrometer and measured clearance between cylinder and piston skirt. Nothing "seemed" too out of whack. The rings were very worn and mostly frozen place with lots of carbon buildup.  When comparing them to the new rings, you could visually see that they were narrower. The gaps were rather large when put back in the cylinder. I ordered a standard piston and ring set.  The gaps we're pretty good on the new rings.  I Hit the cylinders with a ball hone and replace them over top the new pistons and rings.  I cleaned the head as best I could and lapped the valves. The seats looked kind of bad before, but lapped to a nice smooth gray.  One thing that kind of haunts me is that I did not check valve guide clearance before putting everything back together.  I assembled it all with a complete engine rebuild kit I got from NE. Cleaned mating surfaces as best I could and Copper spray on the head gasket. Got the head torqued down (re-tourqed 24hrs later) and installed the cam journals, cam, sprocket and rockers. Use the bit of red permatex under the box. Wiped excess away. Set tappet clearance.  Oh, also replaced cam chain tensioner and roller. Everything seems to be moving in sync.

Now I'll hit you with some pictures in a few questions. Thought I'd show you my other old Honda. CB350k2. Before and after.



















First question. I set the valve cover in place without a gasket just to keep dust and whatnot off of the top end. When I did this I noticed that the cover does not sit flush against the head. Further inspection found that the area that houses the tac gear is in contact with the middle bolt on the right cam journal. I realize I don't have a gasket in there, but there's like a .75 mm gap between the cover and the head. My fear is that when I do install the gasket, this will keep it from seating properly on that side. Is this normal? The journals are completely flush and pulled tight against the head, so I don't know what else would be causing this. Because there was plenty of aluminum there, I already ground a little bit away from the valve cover where the bolt was hitting.






Second question. It appears that the center of my drum stopper is worn. What causes this? Is it common? Also, what malfunctions could this cause if left as is? I'm not 100% sure what this part does.


Thank you for checking out this thread. Thanks in advance for any advice offered. 








Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2022, 10:21:35 AM »
Just realized I can attach pictures directly without using a photo hosting website. I was getting thrown because when I hit preview nothing would show. Anyway, hope the previous photos are viewable.
I thought the black paint on the frame and other parts was in pretty good shape, but after power washing, I realized it was a little rough.  I'm going to do rattle can job on the frame. Good old gloss black Rust-Oleum. Did a test run on a few smaller parts in the heat of my garage. I think it'll be good enough for who it's for!

I have a nice set of front forks from a K8 And I'll using them to replace the long fork tubes that were in the bike.  Funny story, I was renting a U-Haul from a ma and pa auto shop a few years ago to move. I was talking to the dude at the counter about old motorcycles and telling him I was going to pick up this CB750. I was about ready to pull off the lot and he came wheeling out the front end off a K8. Talk about right place right time!

I guess I'll keep the lowers from my 74 because the newer forks did not have any brake components with them.  I did a little shining on one of the lowers yesterday.  I've got my new seals And gators and I think I'll use rotella 10w-30.  Same oil I use in my CB350 motor, so have it on hand.   I used ATF in my CB350 forks, thought maybe the 10W-30 would be a little stiffer.

Not sure if anyone saw my two questions in the first post, but I would still be curious if anyone has input. Thanks.

Offline scunny

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2022, 02:09:56 PM »
Is that bolt head correct ?
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Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2022, 02:44:09 PM »
Quote
Is that bolt head correct ?

It's the same one that came out when I took it apart.  Should be right unless they got swapped out at some point prior to me.  Even with the gasket in place, pretty sure the cover would be touching that bolt head, or damn near it.  Maybe that's just how close they are meant to be.

Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2022, 04:13:17 PM »
Here's some more progress from the past week.

The cheap little ultrasonic cleaner I got from HF has really been a game changer. Never used one before, was amazed how much dirt came out of the carb bodies even after I clean them by hand initially.  I bought four keyster carb kits. Pretty much just used them for their rubber and float valve. Reused all the original brass.  Mains where 105, slows were 40, which I reead is stock for this year of bike. 

I have seen people struggle to get stuck slides out. I have hit the same roadblock on my 350 this 750 and other old toys. soaking seemed to not do much for me.  I found that heating the outside of the carb around the slide works really slick.  Once you get a certain temperature, the varnish must just melt and they just slide right out. 

I put the carbs back in the rack And did a quick bench sync. The one piece of rubber I didn't replace is the little grommet that seals the slide rod up top. Mine are pretty loose. Will this be an issue??

I got a petcock rebuild kit in the mail. The old one cleaned up pretty good, but the brass tube was all beat to hell and cracked in several places. I tried soldering.  Found out I really suck at it!  I saw a thread where someone had used shrink tube on the brass tube, so I gave that a try. 

I gave my carb boots and air box rubber the old wintergreen oil treatment. It worked really well, and they did not swell much. Here's what I did... Wintergreen oil off Amazon. 8 oz. I think it was $14.   Mixed roughly one part Wintergreen oil to two parts denatured alcohol in a jelly jar.  Soak them one piece at a time.  Noticeably softer after 3 or 4 hours. Let them each soak for 12 hours.  The thinner the rubber, the less time is required and actually you can soak a piece for too long and it will swell as I saw with one of my air box rubbers.   Also used this on the little pressure vent tubes that go between the carbs.  I know new would probably be better with these rubber items, but for less than 20 bucks It will get me up and going.  I think I'll be able to save the leftover solution for future use.

Also worked on a bench seat I'm making from a slab of cherry for the dining room table.  It was a beautiful Sunday!

Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2022, 04:18:20 PM »
Pics

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2022, 04:31:42 PM »
Jake.... those little rubbers around the rod in the carb top are available on EBay. Somewhere I have a bag of 100 I bought for a few bucks, If you can’t find them. That clearance issue needs to be resolved. If that bolt has a shouldered top (the hex part has a washer shape under it), you don’t need an extra washer.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 04:34:25 PM by BenelliSEI »

Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2022, 05:06:09 PM »
Quote
Jake.... those little rubbers around the rod in the carb top are available on EBay. Somewhere I have a bag of 100 I bought for a few bucks, If you can’t find them. That clearance issue needs to be resolved. If that bolt has a shouldered top (the hex part has a washer shape under it), you don’t need an extra washer.
Thanks for the reply. I will do some looking around for those grommets.  If I can't find any, maybe I can pay you for a few?

The bolt is a shouldered hex head. I don't have a washer under it.  That's what baffles me, there's nothing that would be leaving that bolt head too high. The journal is flushed to the head and the bolt is torqued.  I'm probably making a deal out of nothing, I bet the gasket gives me just enough clearance. If not, I did use a Dremel to grind out a very small spot where the two are making contact.  Prospect of a leaky cover has me worried

Another thing on the valve cover I noticed... Mating surface has some pretty noticeable striations in it. Is this from them flattening it at the factory? Will this create a leak risk? Thanks.

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2022, 06:32:50 PM »
uh oh never seen that before either...wonder if there is a connection.  Perhaps some po decided it would be a good idea to mill the valve cover flat on a belt sander or something...and took it a little too far.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline desertrefugee

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2022, 06:45:47 PM »
I and many others, I am sure, have spare valve covers laying around if it comes to that.
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2022, 07:15:42 PM »
for sure!...In fact, I have been digging around in my shop quite a bit recently, and every where I look it seems I have saved another valve cover.  I can't imagine where they all have come from.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2022, 07:49:10 PM »
Quote
uh oh never seen that before either...wonder if there is a connection.  Perhaps some po decided it would be a good idea to mill the valve cover flat on a belt sander or something...and took it a little too far.

Crap.  That adds up.  Good thinking.  I was hoping this motor was unadulterated, but it looks like someone beat me to the punch!

I measured the cover in the way shown below at all eight openings. Keeping the lower jaw of the micrometer flush to the mating surface as best I could. The measurements across the front were...
1.0430, 1.0351, 1.0315, 1.0345
Across the back...
1.0860, 1.0870, 1.0905, 1.0980.

If anyone gets a chance to measure One of their spares, maybe you could share what you got and give me an idea how much may have been ground away. 

I also found a deep gouge / grinder mark in a weird place on the front center of the valve cover. Related?

Thanks guys, for offering to help out in the case that I can't use this cover.



Offline scottly

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2022, 08:46:22 PM »

The bolt is a shouldered hex head. I don't have a washer under it.  That's what baffles me, there's nothing that would be leaving that bolt head too high.
In the pic through the tappet cover hole it sure looks like a washer under the bolt head??
The deep gouge/grinder mark is normal.
The wear in the center of the drum stopper is not abnormal, and not an immediate concern, but keep your eyes open for a replacement in better condition. This part acts as a detent by rolling into position between the pins in the shift drum, holding the drum in each gear position under spring tension.
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2022, 12:20:28 AM »
+1...that deep gouge is normal
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2022, 06:21:49 AM »
Quote
In the pic through the tappet cover hole it sure looks like a washer under the bolt head??

That's crazy, I definitely looks like there's an extra washer under it. Had to run back down to the garage before bed last night to check. No washer. I recreated the tapet hole pic this morning. Got a much better one.

That's interesting about the gouge. So all 750's have this? Is it something related to the casting process? Have not been up close and personal with many of these bikes. 

Some additional thoughts on this valve cover. I've got a slab of granite and some sandpaper that I could try to remove the striations on the mating face. In doing so, I will just be making the clearance problem worse it seems.  I'm also wondering how this issue might affect the relationship between the tach gear and cam.    Or tappet adjuster screw and tappet covers. They might start getting close to each other.  It would be really nice to use this cover, but I'm starting to feel like a replacement could be a pretty good route.

Quote
This part acts as a detent by rolling into position between the pins in the shift drum, holding the drum in each gear position under spring tension

Great explanation. I see exactly what you mean when I work the gear selector. 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 06:24:27 AM by Jake88 »

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2022, 07:07:53 AM »
I have to agree with you. Something is causing the interference and it can only be a modification to the cover….. Is there any difference between that hold down cap and the other one. You may have put it all back as found, but the previous builder swapped them? Possible?

I’ll see if I can find more of those grommets.

Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2022, 04:23:21 PM »
Quote
I have to agree with you. Something is causing the interference and it can only be a modification to the cover….. Is there any difference between that hold down cap and the other one. You may have put it all back as found, but the previous builder swapped them? Possible?

I’ll see if I can find more of those grommets

Benelli, they are all the same. Not saying they all couldn't of been swapped, though.  They have a double circle with a 9 in it on top the head.  I would be very grateful if you can hook me up with 4 grommets! Let me know if you find them.

So it's looking like I need a new valve cover.  If anyone out there has one we could do business on, please let me know. 

Thanks!

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2022, 04:34:32 PM »
Quote
I have to agree with you. Something is causing the interference and it can only be a modification to the cover….. Is there any difference between that hold down cap and the other one. You may have put it all back as found, but the previous builder swapped them? Possible?

I’ll see if I can find more of those grommets

Benelli, they are all the same. Not saying they all couldn't of been swapped, though.  They have a double circle with a 9 in it on top the head.  I would be very grateful if you can hook me up with 4 grommets! Let me know if you find them.


I didn’t think they were different. I stashed them all in a small container and will look for it Tuesday. Will let you know. John D.
So it's looking like I need a new valve cover.  If anyone out there has one we could do business on, please let me know. 

Thanks!

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2022, 08:02:17 AM »
Quote

So it's looking like I need a new valve cover.  If anyone out there has one we could do business on, please let me know. 

I have a spare...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2022, 10:49:46 AM »
Quote
So it's looking like I need a new valve cover.  If anyone out there has one we could do business on, please let me know.

I have a spare

Awesome! I sent you a message. 

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2022, 12:54:30 PM »
Quote
So it's looking like I need a new valve cover.  If anyone out there has one we could do business on, please let me know.

I have a spare

Awesome! I sent you a message. 

Replied
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2022, 01:28:08 PM »
Jake…. Crap weather today and I didn’t get to the shop. I will dig out those top carb seals tomorrow.
John D.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2022, 10:36:11 AM »
Jake…. Crap weather today and I didn’t get to the shop. I will dig out those top carb seals tomorrow.
John D.

Jake…. I just can’t find that little container of carb seals! Will keep looking!

Offline Jake88

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2022, 12:28:40 PM »
Quote
Jake…. Crap weather today and I didn’t get to the shop. I will dig out those top carb seals tomorrow.
John D.

Jake…. I just can’t find that little container of carb seals! Will keep looking!

Funny how things can grow legs. Happens to me often. No worries, keep me posted if they turn up. 

My wife and I had our first baby yesterday. A girl!

Before we went in, I managed to do a little painting of some engine mount brackets an the upper triple tree clamp.  De rusted the rear shocks (evaporust is great) and shined up the other fork lower a bit. 

I'd like to get the frame painted sometime in the near future if I can swing it. I've got it pretty well cleaned, just need to do some sanding and degreasing.  My plan is to dust the bare spots with Rust-Oleum self etch primer and then hit it with several light coats of gloss black.  Seemed to work well on the parts I did last week.

Dang fork seals were fighting me. Going to have to try some heat. 

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Ugly CB750K4 Rat Resto
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2022, 12:46:17 PM »
Congratulations! I bet you get a better t less shop time for a while...... I will find those little buggers!