Author Topic: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox  (Read 2506 times)

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Offline OldGreyBeast

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Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« on: July 28, 2022, 04:12:03 PM »
More airbox problems.  I finally got the OEM airbox installed, carbs back in, etc.  To get this airbox in I had to remove the rectifier/regulator combo deal that the previous owner had installed.  On my other 2 bikes these look to be 2 separate pieces.  This combo one appears to be one of the 4-into-1 units.  I can't seem to figure out how to get it to fit anywhere with the OEM airbox installed.  Do any of you guys have suggestions for that, or do I need to try to source the original style parts?

The bike does have an electronic ignition kit on it, other than that the electrics appear to be close to stock.

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Offline OldGreyBeast

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2022, 04:16:43 PM »
lol I had searched all over this forum and couldn't find anybody else with this problem, then after I make this post I scroll down a bit and find someone with the exact issue.  I swear search functions are useless sometimes.

So, given that "put the OEM stuff back" is the general expert consensus, is buying used off eBay the best course of action?  I can't seem to find new ones anywhere.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2022, 08:39:16 PM »

So, given that "put the OEM stuff back" is the general expert consensus
No, that is the general Luddite consensus.
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Offline david 750f

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2022, 08:40:21 PM »
Oregon Motorcycle Parts makes a replacement rectifier that fits in the stock location. I'm not sure if their regulator fits in the stock location. The regulator rarely goes bad, try Ebay for a used unit.

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/SOHCfours.html
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Offline Maltboy

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2022, 09:15:27 PM »
Here's what I did.  The spacers were needed for the oil tank breather tubes.  I ended up junking the whole mess and going with stock parts because the new combo unit was bad.  No regrets.  The OEM stuff is bulletproof.


Offline OldGreyBeast

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2022, 09:17:45 PM »

So, given that "put the OEM stuff back" is the general expert consensus
No, that is the general Luddite consensus.

So do you have some advice on how to make this one fit then?  I don't want to go back to pods after spending so much time futzing with the carbs with those on there.  This combo unit appears to work fine, there just doesn't appear to be room for it with the factory airbox, at least not in a way that will allow the side cover to be installed.

Thanks david 750f, those parts definitely look closer to what my other bikes have.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2022, 09:59:37 PM »
Refer to replies 2,3 and 4 in this thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190500.0.html
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Offline OldGreyBeast

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2022, 10:51:24 AM »
Refer to replies 2,3 and 4 in this thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190500.0.html

I saw that thread.  On my bike there isn't enough room to mount it vertically as mentioned in #2.  Maybe if your combo unit is smaller.  3 wont work with the factory airbox (this is how it was installed before).  Regarding 4 yeah making a custom mount is great, if there were pictures of how people have done that I'd give it a try, I'm personally not willing to do a bunch of R&D/fabricating to make a questionable-quality part work.
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Offline OldGreyBeast

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2022, 10:54:16 AM »
Here's what I did.  The spacers were needed for the oil tank breather tubes.  I ended up junking the whole mess and going with stock parts because the new combo unit was bad.  No regrets.  The OEM stuff is bulletproof.

Thanks, yeah I think I'm just going to buy stock parts.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2022, 02:59:07 PM »

So, given that "put the OEM stuff back" is the general expert consensus
No, that is the general Luddite consensus.

So, using a proven with time, stock, 50 year old regulator design is being a Luddite.  Okay then, what does that make a person who clings to, fondles other types of 50 year old machinery make them?  How old are other parts on your bike Scottly?   How new does everything you own have to be in order to miss the Luddite label?
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2022, 05:43:44 PM »
I'm not familiar with that model. Where did the OEM rectifier and regulator go? There's no room on that panel pictured, so they weren't on it. Why won't this r/r fit where they were?

Offline wolf550

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2022, 06:17:54 PM »
I made my own out of aluminum. since your bike looks like it has all the oem equipment, going custom does not seem to be the way to go. I did not have the electrical parts or wiring. I ran my own wiring and upgraded to blade fuses, relocated buzzer, blinker etc. the only thing on my custom plate is the R/R and Starter solenoid.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2022, 08:10:06 PM »

So, given that "put the OEM stuff back" is the general expert consensus
No, that is the general Luddite consensus.

So, using a proven with time, stock, 50 year old regulator design is being a Luddite.  Okay then, what does that make a person who clings to, fondles other types of 50 year old machinery make them?  How old are other parts on your bike Scottly?   How new does everything you own have to be in order to miss the Luddite label?
The electro-mechanical regulator design was 50 years old 50 years ago. ;) Even Honda switched over to solid state regulators in 1979. 
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Offline scottly

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2022, 08:12:32 PM »
Where did the OEM rectifier and regulator go?
I was wondering the same thing..
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Offline scunny

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2022, 12:27:54 AM »
Where did the OEM rectifier and regulator go?
that is the most important question.
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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2022, 12:40:30 AM »
Personally, would want to find out what smoked the combo unit in the first place.

Granted, sometimes the cheap ones were made by people who didn't look at the bikes wiring diagram.
Happened with the 750 triple in build.  The cheap parts just weren't wired right.  Finally went with OMP and haven't considered any other makers parts since.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2022, 01:58:01 AM »
Somebody in Germany found out there are aftermarket combo's which have the alternator work at max all the time. Here's a question: how do you know the product which is to your liking, is not one of them?
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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2022, 10:57:32 AM »
Somebody in Germany found out there are aftermarket combo's which have the alternator work at max all the time. Here's a question: how do you know the product which is to your liking, is not one of them?

In the case of OMP - they're made by a PNW local that gives a damn

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2022, 12:07:47 PM »
I've heard there is a difference with these types of reg/rect's,particularly: shunt type and series type.
Does anyone know the Pro's or Con's of these two types ?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2022, 04:41:40 PM »
I've heard there is a difference with these types of reg/rect's,particularly: shunt type and series type.
Does anyone know the Pro's or Con's of these two types ?

As I understand it, the shunt type shorts the output incrementally to bring down the system voltage.  The series type would gate the output only allowing what was demanded to pass to system.  I believe both these types on our bikes need the field coil to get max voltage and current all the time.  The risk is that the field coil overheats and ruins the winding insulation, as it wasn't designed to operate that way.

The best type would be neither of those.  But, rather to control the alternator output power, by controlling the power to the field coil electromagnet.  This varies the strength of the magnetic field according to the demands of maintaining battery voltage.  The alternator makes only the power needed, relative to the RPM it spins.  And powers the field coil only as needed.

The field coil CAN be controlled with silicon devices. ( I don't know which brands or offerings work this way.) But, they all use up some power all the time to do their work switching currents on and off.  The stock regulator only uses power when there is excess voltage in the system to hold a weak electromagnet contact away from the full power contact position.  This means the battery is at full capacity and doesn't need or want more power.  If for some reason the electrical loads are extremely low, even the low power mode can overcharge a full battery when the RPM is high. The stock regulator then uses power to completely disconnect the field coil and stopping all output from the alternator, thus keeping the battery from any overcharge harm.  The stock regulator is essentially a three position switch that is activated based on what voltage it senses at it's terminals.  It is a simple device, but with excellent and efficient engineering, and the only bit that can wear out during use are the mechanical contacts.  Which should probably be dressed and spring preload re-adjusted (properly) every 30-40 years or more depending on battery abuse patterns.  Lastly, the stock regulator has selected components with temperature coefficients matching the battery charge requirements at different battery temperatures.  When the battery is hot, full voltage basis is different than when the battery is cold.  And the battery can be harmed if the voltage is not corrected for that temperature variance.  The stock regulator complies with this in operation.  I don't know of ANY aftermarket electronic regulator that has this feature.  But of course, I don't know about them all, and have never needed to buy one as the old but proven design still works admirably on all my SOHC4s.

I spent 30 years in the electronic industry designing circuits.  I could design an electronic regulator for this bike if I felt the need to do so.  But, since I don't need the profits from selling or reselling such a device, I don't want to, especially since the stock one works so well for me.  While Honda did switch to an electronic one for later bikes.  They also changed the means of generating power in different ways than that of the SOHC4.  The stock mechanical design was abandoned because electronic devices can be made cheaper than electro-mechanical regulators.  NOT because they are necessarily "better", but because of profit margins in components, testing and production adjustment costs.  To make a mechanical type Voltage regulator today, while doable, would cost far more than the cheap regulators available today made for a price point rather than tailored to function in the best manner for a specific application.    Who is going to test them for correct operation in all environmental conditions besides "look the battery charges, must be perfect, let's go ride!"  (until something else fails.)

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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2022, 04:50:19 PM »
I've heard there is a difference with these types of reg/rect's,particularly: shunt type and series type.
Does anyone know the Pro's or Con's of these two types ?

As I understand it, the shunt type shorts the output incrementally to bring down the system voltage.  The series type would gate the output only allowing what was demanded to pass to system.  I believe both these types on our bikes need the field coil to get max voltage and current all the time.  The risk is that the field coil overheats and ruins the winding insulation, as it wasn't designed to operate that way.

The best type would be neither of those.  But, rather to control the alternator output power, by controlling the power to the field coil electromagnet.  This varies the strength of the magnetic field according to the demands of maintaining battery voltage.  The alternator makes only the power needed, relative to the RPM it spins.  And powers the field coil only as needed.

The field coil CAN be controlled with silicon devices. ( I don't know which brands or offerings work this way.) But, they all use up some power all the time to do their work switching currents on and off.  The stock regulator only uses power when there is excess voltage in the system to hold a weak electromagnet contact away from the full power contact position.  This means the battery is at full capacity and doesn't need or want more power.  If for some reason the electrical loads are extremely low, even the low power mode can overcharge a full battery when the RPM is high. The stock regulator then uses power to completely disconnect the field coil and stopping all output from the alternator, thus keeping the battery from any overcharge harm.  The stock regulator is essentially a three position switch that is activated based on what voltage it senses at it's terminals.  It is a simple device, but with excellent and efficient engineering, and the only bit that can wear out during use are the mechanical contacts.  Which should probably be dressed and spring preload re-adjusted (properly) every 30-40 years or more depending on battery abuse patterns.  Lastly, the stock regulator has selected components with temperature coefficients matching the battery charge requirements at different battery temperatures.  When the battery is hot, full voltage basis is different than when the battery is cold.  And the battery can be harmed if the voltage is not corrected for that temperature variance.  The stock regulator complies with this in operation.  I don't know of ANY aftermarket electronic regulator that has this feature.  But of course, I don't know about them all, and have never needed to buy one as the old but proven design still works admirably on all my SOHC4s.

I spent 30 years in the electronic industry designing circuits.  I could design an electronic regulator for this bike if I felt the need to do so.  But, since I don't need the profits from selling or reselling such a device, I don't want to, especially since the stock one works so well for me.  While Honda did switch to an electronic one for later bikes.  They also changed the means of generating power in different ways than that of the SOHC4.  The stock mechanical design was abandoned because electronic devices can be made cheaper than electro-mechanical regulators.  NOT because they are necessarily "better", but because of profit margins in components, testing and production adjustment costs.  To make a mechanical type Voltage regulator today, while doable, would cost far more than the cheap regulators available today made for a price point rather than tailored to function in the best manner for a specific application.    Who is going to test them for correct operation in all environmental conditions besides "look the battery charges, must be perfect, let's go ride!"  (until something else fails.)

Thanks TT,I understand.
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  I love the small ones too !
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Offline 6adan

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2022, 07:33:40 PM »
TwoTired, I always like your replies, you make it understandable.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2022, 12:52:25 AM »
I've heard there is a difference with these types of reg/rect's,particularly: shunt type and series type.
Does anyone know the Pro's or Con's of these two types ?

As I understand it, the shunt type shorts the output incrementally to bring down the system voltage.  The series type would gate the output only allowing what was demanded to pass to system.  I believe both these types on our bikes need the field coil to get max voltage and current all the time.  The risk is that the field coil overheats and ruins the winding insulation, as it wasn't designed to operate that way.

The best type would be neither of those.  But, rather to control the alternator output power, by controlling the power to the field coil electromagnet.  This varies the strength of the magnetic field according to the demands of maintaining battery voltage.  The alternator makes only the power needed, relative to the RPM it spins.  And powers the field coil only as needed.

The field coil CAN be controlled with silicon devices. ( I don't know which brands or offerings work this way.) But, they all use up some power all the time to do their work switching currents on and off.  The stock regulator only uses power when there is excess voltage in the system to hold a weak electromagnet contact away from the full power contact position.  This means the battery is at full capacity and doesn't need or want more power.  If for some reason the electrical loads are extremely low, even the low power mode can overcharge a full battery when the RPM is high. The stock regulator then uses power to completely disconnect the field coil and stopping all output from the alternator, thus keeping the battery from any overcharge harm.  The stock regulator is essentially a three position switch that is activated based on what voltage it senses at it's terminals.  It is a simple device, but with excellent and efficient engineering, and the only bit that can wear out during use are the mechanical contacts.  Which should probably be dressed and spring preload re-adjusted (properly) every 30-40 years or more depending on battery abuse patterns.  Lastly, the stock regulator has selected components with temperature coefficients matching the battery charge requirements at different battery temperatures.  When the battery is hot, full voltage basis is different than when the battery is cold.  And the battery can be harmed if the voltage is not corrected for that temperature variance.  The stock regulator complies with this in operation.  I don't know of ANY aftermarket electronic regulator that has this feature.  But of course, I don't know about them all, and have never needed to buy one as the old but proven design still works admirably on all my SOHC4s.

I spent 30 years in the electronic industry designing circuits.  I could design an electronic regulator for this bike if I felt the need to do so.  But, since I don't need the profits from selling or reselling such a device, I don't want to, especially since the stock one works so well for me.  While Honda did switch to an electronic one for later bikes.  They also changed the means of generating power in different ways than that of the SOHC4.  The stock mechanical design was abandoned because electronic devices can be made cheaper than electro-mechanical regulators.  NOT because they are necessarily "better", but because of profit margins in components, testing and production adjustment costs.  To make a mechanical type Voltage regulator today, while doable, would cost far more than the cheap regulators available today made for a price point rather than tailored to function in the best manner for a specific application.    Who is going to test them for correct operation in all environmental conditions besides "look the battery charges, must be perfect, let's go ride!"  (until something else fails.)
Excellent summary. It was a German engineer who posted his findings on the German forum after having monitored and compared the OEM arrangement to aftermarket full electronic devices. He discovered the big resistor actually 'senses' the ambient temperature - not so much the battery's temperature as I understood it - so in hot weather the charging is reduced just slightly, whereas in the cold, right after a cold start the charging is at max, because the resistor is still cold. I don't know how big the effect is and if it was designed on purpose by Honda or just a bonus of having that big resistor in the open. Anyway, you can't go wrong with OEM, but try to tell that to all those who start saliving as soon as they see something 'modern', 'full electronic', etc, which hands them an argument to tinker some more with their bikes. Anything is better than having to assist in the household, right?
In some civilisations a 24/7 advertisement (there's no escaping this bombardement) has succeeded in priming the people they need to buy and buy, that everything one undertakes, begins with buying stuff. This can develop into a serious addiction. I have knowledge of a civilsation, that although it consists of only 4% of the world population, manages to consume 25% of the earth's raw materials...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 02:46:04 AM by Deltarider »
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Online PeWe

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2022, 09:01:31 AM »
A colleague has an Aprilia Falco 1000 2001.
Its charging system is on full charge constantly. Regulator burns excess power and get very hot.
It will stop working if placed wrong wich its stock position was.
It had to run even harder with low wattage bulbs.

I have the cheap rectifier mod left to do for my bikes to get better charging at lower rpms.
(Schottky Three Phase Rectifier)

I have seen that the regulator can not be set low, risk that it will not kick in the higher voltage mode around 4000-4500 rpm.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 10:10:47 AM by PeWe »
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Offline OldGreyBeast

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Re: Combo regulator/rectifier fitmet with factory airbox
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2022, 09:22:34 AM »
Where did the OEM rectifier and regulator go?
that is the most important question.

I answered that in my first post.

Quote
I had to remove the rectifier/regulator combo deal that the previous owner had installed.

I don't have the original stuff and don't know why it was replaced.  Judging by other stupid stuff that was done on this bike, I assume the previous owner replaced it for no real reason other than he liked spending money.
1974 CB550, 1975 CB550, 1976 CB550, 1986.5 Nissan D21, 1987 Mercedes 190D Turbo, 2010 Mercedes E350, 2016 Suzuki GSX-S1000