Author Topic: proper plug color 1970 CB750  (Read 990 times)

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Offline BasicPoke

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proper plug color 1970 CB750
« on: March 30, 2024, 12:04:27 PM »
Is this #1 plug the proper color?  Needles are at center position.  40 slow jets, 110 main jets.  Fuel levels were about 7 mm below gasket using clear tube.  Thanks. 

Offline newday777

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2024, 12:49:12 PM »
Yes #1 looks great.
Are you running pod filters?
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline BasicPoke

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2024, 01:32:41 PM »
Yes #1 looks great.
Are you running pod filters?
Stock air box.  I believe it's a K&N filter.  #1 is a Keyster aftermarket 40 slow jet, others are stock 40s, all mains are Keyster 110 (original Honda mains were no better).  I have purchased new Honda 38s, 40s, 105s, and 110s.  I will put a Honda 40 & 110 on #1 (pretty much leaving the same).  Trying to decide what to do with the others.  I also have an extra Honda emulsion tube that I may drill out, and a new Honda needle and needle jet.
Ron

Offline newday777

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2024, 08:07:42 PM »
Yes #1 looks great.
Are you running pod filters?
Stock air box.  I believe it's a K&N filter.  #1 is a Keyster aftermarket 40 slow jet, others are stock 40s, all mains are Keyster 110 (original Honda mains were no better).  I have purchased new Honda 38s, 40s, 105s, and 110s.  I will put a Honda 40 & 110 on #1 (pretty much leaving the same).  Trying to decide what to do with the others.  I also have an extra Honda emulsion tube that I may drill out, and a new Honda needle and needle jet.
Ron
Why mix and match? Keep it all Honda/Keihin brass.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline HondaMan

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2024, 09:38:33 PM »
If you need one #40 pilot jet, PM me. If you need one K&N #42 jet (which acts like a #40 Keihin jet), PM me. I have odds & ends of both from dead carbs.
Your #1 is running a little lean, which will make #3 dark and wet, and the #4 is running perfectly, so the #1 is being dragged along lean.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline BasicPoke

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2024, 07:01:04 PM »
If you need one #40 pilot jet, PM me. If you need one K&N #42 jet (which acts like a #40 Keihin jet), PM me. I have odds & ends of both from dead carbs.
Your #1 is running a little lean, which will make #3 dark and wet, and the #4 is running perfectly, so the #1 is being dragged along lean.
Thanks for the response.
Following are the conditions for several hundred miles to produce those plugs, driven some highway, some backroads:

Following measured with pin gauges
   
    PILOT                         MAIN                                      FUEL LEVEL
1   0.015" (0.38 mm) Keyster 40   0.042" (1.07 mm) new Keyster marked 110   7 mm below carb body
2   0.018" (0.46 mm) stock 40     0.042" (1.07 mm) new Keyster marked 110   5 mm below carb body, now will be set to 7
3   0.016" (0.41 mm) stock 40     0.042" (1.07 mm) new Keyster marked 110   7 mm below carb body
4   0.016" (0.41 mm) stock 40     0.042" (1.07 mm) new Keyster marked 110   7 mm below carb body
Needles all on center slot.


Can you please suggest what changes I should make.  I am thinking #40 and #110 on all cylinders.  It seems the above measurements explain your comments (#1 slow jet smaller than 40, #2 slow jet larger than 40 plus fuel level was higher than other cylinders).  It's probably reasonable to assume that the Keyster mains it was running actually measured 1.10 mm and the 1.07 mm is only due to the resolution of my measurement with SAE pin gauges.

I have the following new Honda parts on hand:
#38 and #40 slow jets
#105 and #110 main jets
1 needle jet and jet needle (current ones I am running show a little wear & corrosion but not major)
1 jet holder (current ones I am running show a little corrosion but not major)

I cleaned all the carbs and parts in an ultrasonic cleaner, but that had been done in the recent past.  I just tried to clear out the air passages with copper wire as best as I could.  Everything looked clean.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 09:43:36 PM by BasicPoke »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2024, 05:40:38 PM »
I would suggest using the #105 Honda/Keihin jets and the newer #40 idle jets.
The #40 that is bigger in the hole may have suffered MTBE etching, or maybe a ham-fisted cleaning by someone before you?


Today's fuels burn much slower than those of the 1970s, so a little bit leaner mix should be the order of the day. Lower the octane, too: don't use Premium unless you've raised compression in the engine, use Regular grade instead. If the octane is too high then the plugs will always run dark.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline BasicPoke

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2024, 12:32:05 PM »
I would suggest using the #105 Honda/Keihin jets and the newer #40 idle jets.
The #40 that is bigger in the hole may have suffered MTBE etching, or maybe a ham-fisted cleaning by someone before you?
Today's fuels burn much slower than those of the 1970s, so a little bit leaner mix should be the order of the day. Lower the octane, too: don't use Premium unless you've raised compression in the engine, use Regular grade instead. If the octane is too high then the plugs will always run dark.
Thanks so much HondaMan.  There does appear to be a little corrosion on some of the brass parts.  I will try the 105's and 40's.  Hopefully #1 won't be too lean.  Thanks for the tip on the fuel, I had no idea.  Leaving the needle at center position seems ok?
Ron
« Last Edit: April 03, 2024, 12:35:17 PM by BasicPoke »

Offline Scootch

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2024, 02:25:34 PM »
[quote author=HondaMan link=topic=194710.msg2279978#msg2279978 date=1711859913
Your #1 is running a little lean, which will make #3 dark and wet, and the #4 is running perfectly, so the #1 is being dragged along lean.
[/quote]
Mark can you explain how this works? I am experiencing similar things but had no idea one cylinder can affect another. However so far the weather has been completely lousy so no chance so far to experiment.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2024, 07:30:26 PM »
[quote author=HondaMan link=topic=194710.msg2279978#msg2279978 date=1711859913
Your #1 is running a little lean, which will make #3 dark and wet, and the #4 is running perfectly, so the #1 is being dragged along lean.
Mark can you explain how this works? I am experiencing similar things but had no idea one cylinder can affect another. However so far the weather has been completely lousy so no chance so far to experiment.
[/quote]
Sure:
since the crankshaft slaves all these carbs together, so to speak, the intake suction at each cylinder needs to be similar (so-called 'carb balancing') in order for the airspeed to be similar thru each carb, thus making the carb mix in the same air-fuel range. As the air speed increases the cylinder runs leaner, and vice-versa: at idle the carbs mix about 8:1 air-fuel and around 2500-3000 (depending on which 750 cam yours has, F0 and later being 3000 RPM) and by about 3800+ RPM it drops (gets leaner) to less than 12:1, becoming around 14:1 when the slides are open past the 'wasp-waist' in the middle of the throat.

So, when the first cylinder fires with its inhaled mixture and the crank accelerates to that speed, the next cylinder 'down the line' in the firing order receives that crank speed from that previous cylinder, and the airspeed thru the venturi of that carb causes mixing accordingly. If this next slide is open exactly the same as in the previous cylinder's carb, but the first cylinder was a tad lean, the crank will run momentarily slower at the intake stroke of this next carb. Since the mix is richer when the air is moving slower for a given slide opening, the mixture falls toward the slower mix rate with the same-size slide opening. This difference isn't a lot: if I assigned a (arbitrary) value of 1 CFM airflow for the #1 carb and the engine stumbled for leanness in #1, then the #2 carb's slide will be open too far for the crank speed that #1 caused, making its air intake only 0.999 CFM (again, arbitrary value, for example here), and since it gets richer as it slows down, the next cylinder #2 ends up with a wetter mix. Thus the darker plug.

This issue is critical in multi-carb'd airplane engines and is a point of scrutiny big-time when the engines are serviced, and especially when rebuilt. When I mentioned this to a fellow engineer (and SOHC4'er, CB400F) one day in the lunchroom at an aircraft manufacturer I worked for in 2006-2008 and the 'big' boss was behind me listening to it (I didn't know that...), the boss later created a meeting of the Power Group of the airplane's engineering team and told me to explain that to them all, because he knew it to be true but had never been able to explain it to them - so, they were also arguing about it. It became a part of the company's video-teaching series. I didn't even know they were recording it, standing there in my bluejeans, talking to a team of guys in suits. There I was, the Senior Electrical Systems engineer, not even IN the Power Group...  :-[
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Scootch

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2024, 07:25:59 AM »
If you need one #40 pilot jet, PM me. If you need one K&N #42 jet (which acts like a #40 Keihin jet), PM me. I have odds & ends of both from dead carbs.
Your #1 is running a little lean, which will make #3 dark and wet, and the #4 is running perfectly, so the #1 is being dragged along lean.
As I understand it firing order is 1 2 4 3. If that is the case I don't follow the explanation how 1 causes 3 and 4 causes 1?

Offline jwurbel

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2024, 08:20:38 AM »
This explanation has cleared up an issue I have had.  1 was always lean and 3 would be on the wet side.  Now I’m working on  getting 1 to richen it.

Offline Scootch

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2024, 09:09:51 AM »
This explanation has cleared up an issue I have had.  1 was always lean and 3 would be on the wet side.  Now I’m working on  getting 1 to richen it.

I have this exact situation as well !  1 is lean and 3 is wet.  In my case I also note that 3 exhaust pipe is slower to warm up and maybe even runs cooler than the others.  I would be very interested in seeing how to solve it.  If it would ever stop raining and warm up maybe I could try a few things...

Offline BasicPoke

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2024, 09:38:03 AM »
Half of one crankshaft revolution at 3000 RPM (50 revolutions per second) is 10 milliseconds.  Mark, you are saying in 10 ms (1/100 of a second) the crankshaft rotational speed can change enough to cause a significantly different mixture in the next cylinder.  There is an awful lot of inertia there to prevent a speed change that fast.  That's really what happens?
Edit:  Actually it would be a shorter time period than this, because the speed change would have to happen before or during the intake stroke of the next cylinder to fire.
Ron
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 08:55:56 PM by BasicPoke »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2024, 08:30:24 PM »
If you need one #40 pilot jet, PM me. If you need one K&N #42 jet (which acts like a #40 Keihin jet), PM me. I have odds & ends of both from dead carbs.
Your #1 is running a little lean, which will make #3 dark and wet, and the #4 is running perfectly, so the #1 is being dragged along lean.
As I understand it firing order is 1 2 4 3. If that is the case I don't follow the explanation how 1 causes 3 and 4 causes 1?

1342
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline jonda500

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2024, 09:02:26 PM »
Scootch is correct - firing order is 1243
John
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Offline BasicPoke

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2024, 09:03:27 PM »
ChatGPT and the service manual say the firing order is 1 2 4 3.

Offline BasicPoke

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2024, 09:09:58 AM »
I would suggest using the #105 Honda/Keihin jets and the newer #40 idle jets.
The #40 that is bigger in the hole may have suffered MTBE etching, or maybe a ham-fisted cleaning by someone before you?

Today's fuels burn much slower than those of the 1970s, so a little bit leaner mix should be the order of the day. Lower the octane, too: don't use Premium unless you've raised compression in the engine, use Regular grade instead. If the octane is too high then the plugs will always run dark.
I put in the 105's and 40's.  We only rode 20 miles or so, but seems to be running well.  We will pull the plugs and see how they look soon, just haven't had a chance to ride much.  Thanks again.
Ron

Offline HondaMan

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2024, 08:14:47 PM »
Yep, it is 1243: I had the cam sitting in the cam bearings backward when I went down to look!  :-[ (I have 2 heads sitting out downstairs.)

If you need one #40 pilot jet, PM me. If you need one K&N #42 jet (which acts like a #40 Keihin jet), PM me. I have odds & ends of both from dead carbs.
Your #1 is running a little lean, which will make #3 dark and wet, and the #4 is running perfectly, so the #1 is being dragged along lean.
As I understand it firing order is 1 2 4 3. If that is the case I don't follow the explanation how 1 causes 3 and 4 causes 1?

1342

In this case, it is still similar for the cause-and-effect when intake hoses are leaking, though: When #1 is lean, then #2 will be slow and will mix rich if the #2 hose is not leaking.

What I'm attempting to point out is: when the hoses leak, it doesn't affect the mix as "leaking = lean", but instead because the air thru the carb is mixed richer as the speed drops in that carb, this shows up on the plugs as richer on the most-leaking intake's cylinder. What I find in practice is: if one of the plugs is white and the others are dark, the hoses are not sealing, with the darkest plug showing the best-sealing one in most cases. So, in this case I would 'go after' the darkest/wettest plug's intake hoses first, presuming that the ignition timing is spot-on.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: proper plug color 1970 CB750
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2024, 06:18:51 AM »
Half of one crankshaft revolution at 3000 RPM (50 revolutions per second) is 10 milliseconds.  Mark, you are saying in 10 ms (1/100 of a second) the crankshaft rotational speed can change enough to cause a significantly different mixture in the next cylinder.  There is an awful lot of inertia there to prevent a speed change that fast.  That's really what happens?
Edit:  Actually it would be a shorter time period than this, because the speed change would have to happen before or during the intake stroke of the next cylinder to fire.
Ron

In addition to the crankshaft’s and flywheel’s moments of inertia at 3,000 rpms preventing such…  I = Σ miri2
 
Now as I read we’ve moved on to intake boot air leaks…
I wonder based on what I read, can we richen our mixture by drilling a hole in our intake boots….? 😳
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