Author Topic: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!  (Read 796 times)

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Offline Duanob

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Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« on: August 14, 2024, 01:41:10 PM »
1976 CB550K

Carbs completely gone through and cleaned. Fuel was pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs (side stand only), even the carb intake. It did that with the original float valves. I had some new float valves, put those in and I'm getting the same thing. I've checked and double checked the float height. The only thing I can think of is the floats are gas logged. They didn't seem like it. nice and light when I checked them when i had them out. Would that be a symptom of gas soaked floats?
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

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Offline M 750K6

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2024, 02:53:30 PM »
Assuming floats are in right way up and float heights set correct, if only when on the sidestand, is the spindle for one of the floats damaged and catching? Had that happen once on an old Amal carb. Filed off the burr and all was good.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2024, 06:24:50 PM »
Also make sure the floats are not “dragging” against the sides of the float bowls(too splayed out).

Offline carnivorous chicken

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2024, 07:09:35 PM »
Bad float valves or grit caught in them, cracked overflow tubes (assuming the gas is coming from the overflow tubes, although maybe not if only on the sidestand, but worth checking), sticking floats. I don't think these floats get gas logged.

Offline Don R

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2024, 07:14:13 PM »
 I watched an old Honda mechanic walk around his shop while he turned the pilot needle into the seat, he had put a dab of polishing compound on it first. He said never mix them up because they get used to each other and he rarely puts in new ones.
 He also said the float levels don't change much unless aftermarket parts get used.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2024, 12:22:40 AM »
[...] Would that be a symptom of gas soaked floats?
Impossible.
From 17:00 - 18:20 it shows what goes on in practice. Note how gentle the movement is and how little force is exercised. Note also the little pin at the bottom of the needle does not compress. It's only there to absorb eventual shocks. So measurements should be made with the float's tang touching that little shock absorber, but not compressing it!
Video courtesy Gruzzel
In my experience floats rarely are a problem. I have no idea why so many in this forum mess with it. Maybe Clymer is to blame for this. If you have 'adjusted' those tangs, it's possible the little pin in the float needle is not contacting the tang at the right angle anymore, possibly preventing a full closing position in the valve.
Anyone wanting to check fuel levels can practice my method which is fool proof. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,185754.msg2151647.html#msg2151647
« Last Edit: August 15, 2024, 12:37:55 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline newday777

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2024, 02:34:27 AM »
1976 CB550K

Carbs completely gone through and cleaned. Fuel was pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs (side stand only), even the carb intake. It did that with the original float valves. I had some new float valves, put those in and I'm getting the same thing. I've checked and double checked the float height. The only thing I can think of is the floats are gas logged. They didn't seem like it. nice and light when I checked them when i had them out. Would that be a symptom of gas soaked floats?
Who's float valves did you put in? New Honda float valves? Or aftermarket? Aftermarket are the usual problem.
It's rare the black plastic floats go to soaking gas up. The brass floats do but your 76 should have the plastic floats. Did you put in aftermarket floats?

Is your gas tank totally clean of any rust, Including fine surface rust? Did you shine a bright flash light in or better yet  put a bore scope in the tank to inspect for rust?
Stu
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My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
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New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2024, 06:55:00 AM »
1976 CB550K

Carbs completely gone through and cleaned. Fuel was pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs (side stand only), even the carb intake. It did that with the original float valves. I had some new float valves, put those in and I'm getting the same thing. I've checked and double checked the float height. The only thing I can think of is the floats are gas logged. They didn't seem like it. nice and light when I checked them when i had them out. Would that be a symptom of gas soaked floats?
Who's float valves did you put in? New Honda float valves? Or aftermarket? Aftermarket are the usual problem.
It's rare the black plastic floats go to soaking gas up. The brass floats do but your 76 should have the plastic floats. Did you put in aftermarket floats?

Is your gas tank totally clean of any rust, Including fine surface rust? Did you shine a bright flash light in or better yet  put a bore scope in the tank to inspect for rust?

+1 on possible fit issues with aftermarket float valves or rusty grit gravity-feeding from the tank.
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Offline Duanob

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2024, 09:36:05 PM »
It's not like I've never done this before and had good success. Floats are original. Gas supply was from a new source bag (it's a camelbak style but chemical resistant) and tubing hung from the ceiling into a Y connector into the carb gas lines. , not using the tank, so I know it's clean. The floats are definitely in the correct way. Also set at 22mm from the deck just as the float tab touches the float needle. Double and triple checked. I got the same leaking from the original float needles as the new after market ones. The reason I went with new aftermarket is because the old float needle springs were pretty much worn out. But nothing changed. I get the same gas leaking when I let it flow into the carbs. Yes they are plastic floats and I have heard of them becoming gas logged before from sitting in old gas for years. The funny thing is gas will quit leaking eventually but right off the bat, it leaks like a sieve, even out of the intake of the carb. It leaks out of the front of the carbs as well as the over flow tubes. Maybe too much gravity pressure from hanging the gas bag from the ceiling? i dunno. I've always used the center stand and turned the petcock off when the bike sits but this one didn't come with a center stand and I have yet to put gas in the tank. I'm going to be test riding it soon. I guess I'll keep an absorbent chemical diaper under the carbs for the time being. 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2024, 09:45:48 PM by Duanob »
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2024, 09:50:30 PM »
maybe bad gasket/seal on the seat, or carb casting cracked around seat.  Been running into a bunch of split overflow tubes lately, but that would not explain fuel running out anywhere but the overflow
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Offline M 750K6

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2024, 11:53:06 PM »
How high is your 'camelback' shop tank? Too much head and it will overwhelm the pressure from the floats. Should be around the same height as the bike's tank, to test it.

Offline Cruiser

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2024, 12:24:47 AM »
Are the breather holes free from the carbs?

I had the same on my N°3 carb, apparently it was just a clogged breather hole.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2024, 10:08:45 PM »
From the 750 'archives' where this happens: it is possible for a sharp edge on the float tang to scrape up a tiny ridge (on the float pivot supports) that interferes with the float movement. It then usually holds the float valve slightly open, letting it weep fuel in until the carb overflows.  This happens most often on the sidestand: on the centerstand it only happens once in a great while, or not at all, and when riding, not at all. This is because the tiny ridge can't hold the float tang very well when the bike is moving about, so the carbs behave while riding or on a centerstand, but weep on the sidestand.

So...check on the insides of the float pivot supports where the brass of the floats rub them. See if a tiny ridge might be raised there, and gently file it smooth again. Maybe also debur the edge of the float bracket while you've got the file out?

On the 750 this is legion. Its symptoms are almost always: it leaks fuel while on the sidestand on hot days, even if the petcock is off (it only leaks until the fuel stops expanding, like when the engine cools off or the fuel runs out of the fuel lines). It doesn't leak fuel if on the centerstand, or running down the road.
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Offline Oddjob

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2024, 02:01:54 AM »
How high is your 'camelback' shop tank? Too much head and it will overwhelm the pressure from the floats. Should be around the same height as the bike's tank, to test it.

If a normal carb float seat can withstand the pressure of a fuel pump, as in the VT1000C, then a little extra head from hanging the fuel source higher isn't going to bother it. Tested a VT1000C fuel pump and it spat a solid column of liquid 13ft across my garage, that's pressure.

Offline M 750K6

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2024, 06:52:16 AM »
Oddjob, I'm surprised at that.

Offline Oddjob

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2024, 11:42:19 AM »
TBH So was I, the pressure the pump pushes out is tremendous, I couldn't believe the bike had on normal carbs and that they weren't leaking all the time.

But is the pressure of a small remote tank with a small amount of fuel in it more or less than the pressure of 3.1 gallons a few inches above the carbs? I suppose it would depend on the hose diameter?

Perhaps someone should do an experiment and see if a remote tank suspended from the ceiling, say 6ft above the carbs, results in a leakage. It would be interesting to put this to bed once and for all. 

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2024, 12:02:14 PM »
How high is your 'camelback' shop tank? Too much head and it will overwhelm the pressure from the floats. Should be around the same height as the bike's tank, to test it.

If a normal carb float seat can withstand the pressure of a fuel pump, as in the VT1000C, then a little extra head from hanging the fuel source higher isn't going to bother it. Tested a VT1000C fuel pump and it spat a solid column of liquid 13ft across my garage, that's pressure.

 I was wondering about that while working on Honda VT Shadows & VF Magnas..
Does the fuel pump have a pressure sensitive regulator(yes,they must..)which limits the output pressure ?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2024, 10:09:11 PM by grcamna2 »
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Offline M 750K6

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2024, 12:23:52 PM »
TBH So was I, the pressure the pump pushes out is tremendous, I couldn't believe the bike had on normal carbs and that they weren't leaking all the time.

But is the pressure of a small remote tank with a small amount of fuel in it more or less than the pressure of 3.1 gallons a few inches above the carbs? I suppose it would depend on the hose diameter?

Perhaps someone should do an experiment and see if a remote tank suspended from the ceiling, say 6ft above the carbs, results in a leakage. It would be interesting to put this to bed once and for all.
Yep, mine leaked. Hanging the aux tank from a rafter, but don't leak on the bike. That's why I mentioned it. But my bike's old and was tired. I've done a lot of good things to it, but that might be the difference.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2024, 08:11:24 PM »
Hydrostatic pressure varies per the height of the fluid above the point of measure (and the density of that fluid).
https://nuclear-energy.net/physics/fluid-mechanics/pressure/hydrostatic

Yep, raising the gas tank increases the pressure: I've seen several dragster bikes with smaller tanks, raised above the 'normal' height, so try to avoid having to add a fuel pump to flow fuel fast enough for a dragrace.

Likewise, the float valves can easily hold back considerable pressure if they are seating correctly. In bikes (like the Honda Magnas) with fuel pumps the float levels are higher than those found in similar carbs with simple drain-tank fuel feeds, but not by much: usually about 1 to 1.5mm difference is all I've seen, using the very same float valves as in drain-type carbs.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Duanob

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2024, 08:20:05 AM »
Are the breather holes free from the carbs?

I had the same on my N°3 carb, apparently it was just a clogged breather hole.

You know that's a pretty good theory about too much gravity, that crossed my mind too! It was hung from the garage header so 7'? the gas does eventually stop leaking but that could be a culprit. I put the tank back on now that everything is tuned and timed. I haven't put gas in it quite yet. I still have a couple of other wiring issues to sort out before road testing.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

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Offline MLW9110

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2024, 02:17:33 PM »
I just rebuilt the carbs on my 1977 CB550F. A kit from 4into1 was used. When I first connected to fuel, all four carb bowls overflowed. I tapped on the bowls and the flow stopped except from #4 carb. I took out the new needle and seat and it looked fine but I couldn't get it to stop overfilling the bowl. I put the original needle and seat back in #4 and that took care of it.

I suspect the new needles and seats might need polishing as mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm just going to leave it alone for now.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Fuel pouring out of the #1 and #2 carbs!
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2024, 07:49:45 PM »
I suspect the new needles and seats might need polishing as mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm just going to leave it alone for now.

Hmmm...that's some really, really poor needles if they are brand-new and won't seal. That's what they are supposed to be made to do!  >:(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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