Author Topic: How do you set timing? Man I feel stupid - Some advvise forr others... (Read 8433 times)

KB02 · « **on:** April 05, 2007, 01:42:53 PM »

Okay, I like to consider myself a reasonably intelligent guy, but for the life of my I cannot seem to figure out what the process is to set the timing statically.

HOW DO YOU DO IT?

I just got a Dyna S ignition. The instructions say to "connect a test light at the junction of the blue coil wire and the ground." WHAT? Where do I plug in this test light? I know I want one end grounded, but where does the other end go?

And as for the test light, all I need is just a regular 12 volt bulb in a socket that will light up when the connection is made, right?

PLEASE HELP!!!1

Jonesy · « **Reply #1 on:** April 05, 2007, 02:13:19 PM »

Do you have a timing light? If so, I can tell you a much easier way to do it.

As for the directions, breaker points work by breaking (as the name implies) the primary coil circuit on the ground side. In other words, as long as the key switch and safety cutoff are on, the coils always have power from the battery, with the connection to ground being made/broken to get spark. So, the manual says to disconnect the wires from the points and use a test light to set the timing. You need a powered test light (the kind with batteries and when you touch the two probes together the bulb lights. I use the continuity tester on my meter that gives an audible signal) to connect to the points so that when they are closed, the light turns on, and when they break, the light goes out. You want the light to go out at the moment the "F" mark lines up with the timing pointer.

Now, the Dyna replaces the breaker points. So, with a powered test light connected to the ground and the blue wire on the Dyna S unit (not connected to the coils) we set the timing the same way. However, the Dyna needs battery power, so the red supply wire has to be connected with the key turned on for it to work.

When I set up my Dyna, I just connected everything, setup a strobe timing light and cranked the engine over with wit the key on the fuel shut off so the engine wouldn't start. The timing light would still flash and I could get the static timing set this way. Then, I'd fire it up and set the dynamic timing.

Hope this helps...

nuke · « **Reply #2 on:** April 05, 2007, 02:25:22 PM »

I just installed my Dyna S this week as well and was sort of confused. What is the differerence between Static and Dynamic timing. I followed all the instructions but skipped the static instructions cause all I have is a timing light. I did what you said Jonesy, I shut the fuel and then proceeded to use the timing light and lining up what I think are the right lines. I read that cb750 runs advance timing, and the instructions say to line it up to the line that is located 1/2 inch to the right of line F. Is that correct. Will I be able to just start it up like that and then do fine tuning when the engine is running?(using the small allen bolts on the black thingamajiggers)

which gives +10 advance.

Sorry KB02....I didn't mean to steal the thread....look at it as piggy backing

thanks
nuke

$:-\$

MoTo-BunnY · « **Reply #3 on:** April 05, 2007, 02:27:52 PM »

Remember to turn on not only the ignition switch but the handlebars kill switch, too. . .lol

I spent an hour yesterday during a tune up wondering what the heck was going on because I couldn't get the static timing light to come on at all. I have static timed many-a-VW before and thought myself old hat to the process. . . .

After checking fuses, etc. I finally noticed the kill switch was off *dOh*

I made my static timing light from an idiot light bulb/socket from an extra CB500 handlebar mount and a couple of aligator clips.

Jonesy · « **Reply #4 on:** April 05, 2007, 02:36:18 PM »

Quote from: nuke on April 05, 2007, 02:25:22 PM

I just installed my Dyna S this week as well and was sort of confused. What is the differerence between Static and Dynamic timing. I followed all the instructions but skipped the static instructions cause all I have is a timing light. I did what you said Jonesy, I shut the fuel and then proceeded to use the timing light and lining up what I think are the right lines. I read that cb750 runs advance timing, and the instructions say to line it up to the line that is located 1/2 inch to the right of line F. Is that correct. Will I be able to just start it up like that and then do fine tuning when the engine is running?(using the small allen bolts on the black thingamajiggers) which gives +10 advance.

Sorry KB02....I didn't mean to steal the thread....look at it as piggy backing

thanks
nuke $:-\$

You want to set it up so you line up the F marks with the pointer. For the advance timing you need to have the bike running and over 3,500 RPM. Then you can set at the advance marks. The timing set with the electric starter gets you in the ballpark so you can get the bike started and go from there.

KB02 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 05, 2007, 05:53:20 PM »

Quote from: Jonesy on April 05, 2007, 02:13:19 PM

Now, the Dyna replaces the breaker points. So, with a powered test light connected to the ground and the blue wire on the Dyna S unit (not connected to the coils) we set the timing the same way. However, the Dyna needs battery power, so the red supply wire has to be connected with the key turned on for it to work.

When I set up my Dyna, I just connected everything, setup a strobe timing light and cranked the engine over with wit the key on the fuel shut off so the engine wouldn't start. The timing light would still flash and I could get the static timing set this way. Then, I'd fire it up and set the dynamic timing.

Hope this helps...

Not really... See, I just don't understand where the light (or ohm meter) gets connected. The ground I understand; that part's easy. The instructions for the Dyna system say to leave everything plugged in, so there's no bare end or section of the blue wire to connect to. Should I connect it right off of the coil?

And, no I don't have a timing light. I probably should just break down and get one, huh?

Jonesy · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2007, 07:00:20 PM »

OK, now I see what you meant.

Dyna's instructions have me puzzled as well. If everything is wired up, the coils will complete the circuit to ground either through the light bulb or the Dyna unit. Unless they are going off of the theorem "Electricity takes the path of least resistance", so when the Dyna breaks the connection, the light will come on?

Like you say, with everything connected, where would you hook up a light?

The method I was talking about was a bit different, as you would be using the Dyna as the "switch" to turn the light off. You would need a self-powered test light in this case, connected only to the blue wire from the Dyna unit (disconnected from the coils and with power running to the Dyna via the red supply wire).

KB02 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2007, 04:50:05 AM »

So, if I were to run a self powered test light in series on the blue wire that should work, right?

slarty-bart-farst · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2007, 12:28:37 PM »

Simple switch on a radio tune to no station, sit it by the engine switch on ignition, turn crank by end nut ( remover plugs first if this makes it easyer ) when the engine fires the radio goes "pop" ensure the pop happens when the F mark alines with the pointer on the engine, if it does not the set the backplate the the correct position and retest.
Retune to a radio station and have a beer!

KB02 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2007, 06:02:41 AM »

Okay, I broke down and bought a timing light. I haven't told the wife yet, but I'll probably hear it when balances the check book, "What's the $40 purchase at the parts store?"

KB02 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2007, 09:28:01 AM »

Alright, SO now not even the timing light will work on this bike. I checked the light on my 78 cb400t and it seems to work fine. I read the fine print on instructions for the light and it says if you're using solid copper wire that it's not going to work. Use another wire for the time and then reset. Well the wires I am using are THESE from Dyna. They're not solid copper core, in fact they look very much the same as the stock ones in construction, but for whatever it is not working. I know I'm getting a strong spark from both coils since I have checked them by grounding out a plug on the head. Reading my Clymers manual suggests a procedure where you can connect one of the old wires in line to use, and not even that is working.

I have used a timing light on this bike before, and it was the exact same setup as the new one I have. I just don't understand why it is not working.

What else should I try?

And the real pisser is that the bike has not run since August when one of the stock coils died, so I'm working a dead, cold bike.

scondon · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2007, 09:42:58 AM »

The link provided shows 7mm copper core wires

KB02 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2007, 10:55:58 AM »

scondon · « **Reply #13 on:** April 08, 2007, 11:09:02 AM »

Quote from: KB02 on April 08, 2007, 09:28:01 AM

I read the fine print on instructions for the light and it says if you're using solid copper wire that it's not going to work.

So what's the question about the timing light not working

EDIT: Gotcha, they are not "solid core". Sorry I can be dense sometimes

scondon · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2007, 11:38:53 AM »

You can static time by grounding a plug to the head, like you did to confirm spark. Spin the engine with a wrench until you begin to come to the "F" mark and then turn engine slooooowly until you see a spark. Check where you are on the timing mark and adjust, if needed, until you are just slightly advanced of the "F" mark(1/32" or so to the right of "F", this is where the Dyna S usually ends up for me when I time to the advance marks). Do this for both 1&4 and 2&3 and you should be at a point where the engine will run. Hopefully your timing light will work better on a running engine.

Be sure to have a good charge on the battery as this method can drain it quickly.

KB02 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 08, 2007, 06:26:09 PM »

Alright. I'll try that tomorrow after work and see of that works.

Thanks.

My new tire should be arriving tomorrow, too (first one, it turns out, I ordered the wrong size by mistake).

KB02 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2007, 04:31:33 PM »

****UPDATE 4/10/07****

Okay. I think that I haver finally got the new ignition set staticly. At full advance it seems to be popping on the full advance mark and at regular (not hold the advancer at full) it pops right around the idle mark.

I STILL HAVE NOT STARTED THE BIKE - AND HERE IS WHY -

As I was adjusting the plate to get it to fire on time, I ran out of room on the adjustments. I think it was still around five to ten degrees off (My drunk neighbor was not helping). Perplexed by this situation, I thought that maybe someone at the factor might have screwed the whole timing plate together backwards (since reversing it would allow me a little more adjustment in the direction I needed to go.) SO, I reversed the plate and started in again. This time I was much closer and was able to get the timing set by not only turning the adjustment plate all the way Counter-Clockwise, but also the 1-4 and 2-3 timing modules on the plate had to be adjusted all the way to the end of their ability.

Everything appears to be set like it should to make the engine fire like it should, but I am really worried that I had to adjust it like I did. Is there something that I should be looking into? Is this an obvious sign that my engine is seriously out of wack?

... or should I just run it and not worry?

***edited 4/11***
Correction, it was adjusted all the counter-clockwise, not clockwise. Sorry .

feliz · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2007, 04:41:40 PM »

Sorry but I can't answer your question. Just so you know your not the only one having problems, I spent yesterday doing my points and timing and never did get it really right on. I used a dwell meter for the points and a light for timing but every time I'd adjust one set of points or one timing setting it would throw off the other settings, it was like chasing a dog all day. Today I took a ride to try it out and then checked the settings again and of course they had moved since yesterday so it started all over again. Hope you have better luck than I am.

Jonesy · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2007, 04:44:45 PM »

Quote from: KB02 on April 10, 2007, 04:31:33 PM

Okay. I think that I haver finally got the new ignition set statically. At full advance it seems to be popping on the full advance mark and at regular (not hold the advancer at full) it pops right around the idle mark.

I'm a bit confused.. You said it seems to be timed properly at full advance, but you haven't run the engine yet. Did you somehow hold the flyweights out while checking the timing?

Based on my experience with the Dynas, it sounds odd that the unit would need that much modification to get the proper timing (flipping the plate around, etc..).

This may be a dumb question, but are you sure the magnet rotor was installed in the proper index? (the magnet dimple pointing toward the 1,4 mark, if I remember correctly) I'm not sure if this would be a potential cause of your adjustment issue or not...

KB02 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2007, 07:52:58 PM »

Quote from: Jonesy on April 10, 2007, 04:44:45 PM

I'm a bit confused.. You said it seems to be timed properly at full advance, but you haven't run the engine yet. Did you somehow hold the flyweights out while checking the timing?

Yes. As per the instructions for the Dyna S: "Hold the rotor at full advance while rotating the engine with a wrench." (Or there abouts...)

Quote from: Jonesy on April 10, 2007, 04:44:45 PM

Based on my experience with the Dynas, it sounds odd that the unit would need that much modification to get the proper timing (flipping the plate around, etc..).

I agree. The other thing that throws a little loop for me is that the old points plate was also adjusted all the way clockwise. This seemed to get the timing where it needed to be before, but still felt like it could have gone just a little bit further.

Quote from: Jonesy on April 10, 2007, 04:44:45 PM

This may be a dumb question, but are you sure the magnet rotor was installed in the proper index? (the magnet dimple pointing toward the 1,4 mark, if I remember correctly) I'm not sure if this would be a potential cause of your adjustment issue or not...

Yes. I had that thought, too. I checked. It is positioned correctly.

Odd, huh?

Bodi · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2007, 09:50:06 PM »

The wires in the link are copper core, there's no "solid" - ie non-stranded - copper core ignition wire as the large copper conductor would work harden and break in no time with engine vibration. There are really only 2 kinds of spark plug wire: metal - yours are stranded copper - and resistor wire. So your timing light won't work. I've never come across a timing light that requires resistor core wire before. You can just use a bit of resistor wire for the light, chop off a car wire a foot from the sparkpug cap, strip the cut end back 1/2" or so and push it in the existing #4 or #3 plug cap then plug the car wire end onto the plug - clamp the sensor on the car wire. 99.9% of all car wire sets are resistor wire.
Static timing gets you in the ballpark so the engine will run while you use a timing light in my opinion. Use the strobe to set the timing for the advance mark (~3000 RPM) and ignore where the "F" mark fires at idle.

nuke · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2007, 10:22:33 PM »

Quote from: Bodi on April 10, 2007, 09:50:06 PM

Use the strobe to set the timing for the advance mark (~3000 RPM) and ignore where the "F" mark fires at idle.

so when you get it started....run to 3000-3500 rpm, then set timing with timing gun (strobe) to advance mark. Just to make sure...advance timing mark is the one approx 1/2 inch to right of f mark...correct?

nuke

$:-\$

KB02 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 11, 2007, 04:56:06 AM »

That's what I understand, anyway.

nuke · « **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2007, 07:44:23 AM »

we'll figure this out eventually KB02!

Its a little easier when the bike is running!!!

I have noticed a diiference in warm up, idle....still have yet to take it for a long ride...

Bodi · « **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2007, 11:12:39 AM »

"advance timing mark is the one approx 1/2 inch to right of f mark...correct?"

Exactly. The engine turns clockwise at the timing end, so a mark to the right will be "before" - advanced relative to - the F.

KB02 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 12, 2007, 05:52:36 AM »

Quote from: nuke on April 11, 2007, 07:44:23 AM

we'll figure this out eventually KB02!

You and me, Brother. We'll get there!

SO, what the consensus? Should I go ahead and start it up? Or should I try to figure out why the timing plate needed so much fiddling to set first?

The other thing I was thinking about was putting the plate back the way it came and switching pickups (and rotating the rotor). I KNOW I set this up correctly, but maybe, just maybe I got it backwards. What do you think?

tmht · « **Reply #26 on:** April 12, 2007, 07:44:29 AM »

Here are my experiences with installing a Dyna S in a 76 400.

I had the same problem as you were with trying to set the timing statically to the advance mark as indicated by Dyna's instructions. A few beers later I came to the realization that their directions didn't make any f'n sense. So I set it statically to the regular timing marks as I would points. I had more or less 50% of adjustment either direction at that point. Had a few more beers and decided, "What the hell" and fired it up. (I had no intention of riding.) Fired and sounded beautiful right away. So, I had another beer and pulled out the strobe. Timing at idle was spot on, revved the motor to 2K and it was right on the advance.

I have since put ~1500 miles on the bike in about 3 months and it is running like a champ and I haven't had to screw with the timing once.

Here's what I learned:
1. The instructions that Dyna sends are flat wrong for the 400.
2. High-Life tastes good when it is hot as hell here in NOLA.

KB02 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 13, 2007, 07:55:28 AM »

At least it makes me happy that I have figured it out, bu MAN do I feel stupid right now.

Remember how earlier I said:

Quote from: KB02 on April 10, 2007, 04:31:33 PM

...My drunk neighbor was not helping...

Yes, I'm going to blame him. He had me confused....

... I was turning the engine the wrong direction.

I reversed everything that I had previously done (set the plate back to normal) and the timing was almost right on without even having to adjust it for 1-4 (2-3 took a small tweak, but not much. It's currently 34 degrees. The bike has not run since July or August, and it only took about 4 seconds of spinning before it started to run.

Now I've just got to get a spare wire so I can run the timing light to get it dialed right in.

MAN I feel stupid.

Thanks all for your help!

mlinder · « **Reply #28 on:** April 13, 2007, 09:57:14 AM »

Hrmm.

Didn't have much of a problem setting the timing statically at advance on my dyna s unit.
Wondering what is going wrong with you guys...

tmht · « **Reply #29 on:** April 13, 2007, 10:10:44 AM »

Quote from: mlinder on April 13, 2007, 09:57:14 AM

Hrmm.

Didn't have much of a problem setting the timing statically at advance on my dyna s unit.
Wondering what is going wrong with you guys...

Dunno, but it may be something specific to the 400. All I know is that there was physically not enough adjustment to move the timing plate enough to get the light to turn on at the advance mark. Set it to the regular mark and all is good. Double checked everything with the strobe and it is right on. Just picked up a new 750 project that will have a Dyna S in it as well. We'll see if there is any difference.

neil young · « **Reply #30 on:** May 27, 2007, 05:34:21 PM »

i have just installed a dyna s on my 1977 cb 550...it installed easily but when i try to time with a strobe light at 2500 rpm as stated in the manual i cannot line up the advance mark....what am i doing wrong......i read here to set rpm at 3000 to 3500 is this correct.please answer as i need my bike on the road for work tommorow morning....thx

KB02 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 28, 2007, 05:04:08 AM »

How far is it off? Is it advanced or retarded? What do you get at Idle?

jesusno2 · « **Reply #32 on:** May 29, 2007, 12:47:51 AM »

maybe i'm retarded but when i put my dyna in my 750 the only thing i did was roll it up to top dead center on 1 and 4 took made kinda a mark on where the points plate was at slapped the dyna in hooked it up and ran the bike and it still runns to this day. #$%* maybe i'm just lucky or am i missing something here.

KB02 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 29, 2007, 04:56:41 AM »

Well, you know what they say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

neil young · « **Reply #34 on:** May 30, 2007, 12:24:51 AM »

well i think my problem for sure is that i did not roll my engine to top dead center...i just started tearing it apart.so i'm thinking that when installed the dyna visa vee the instructions with 1-4 facing up it's not where it should be $:-\$

jesusno2 · « **Reply #35 on:** June 01, 2007, 04:53:37 PM »

i DUNNO IF I DID IT RIGHT? I NEVER HAVE PUT A TIMING LIGHT ON THE BIKE IT MAY BE WAY OFF IT RUNS THOUGH RODE IT 1000 MILES LIKE THAT LAST SUMMER TO SPOKANE AND BACK FOR A BIKE SHOW SEEMED TO PING SOME WHEN I WAS THEIR, BUT IT WAS REAL HOT, AND THE HIGHER ALTITUDE( IT WAS RUNNING KINDA FAT) DID'NT HELP MUCH EITHER I'M SURE. I'LL PUT A TIMING LIGHT ON IT ONCE I FIGURE OUT ALL THE OTHER STUFF I GOTTA DO TO IT THIS SUMMER.

neil young · « **Reply #36 on:** June 02, 2007, 10:31:59 PM »

well sometimes things go so well that you forget a thing or two....there is only one way to put the advance back in place as it has the nub on one side.what i had to do was undo the #1-4 thingy on the plate and rotate it a few mm untill everything lined up then retighten the allen screws.did the tappets and now the bike is running great

jesusno2 · « **Reply #37 on:** June 03, 2007, 01:16:41 PM »

Ok so let me get this straight reading this thread i'm thinking i might need to go look at mine and re do it.

So with all this advance talk, I'm kinda cornfused. are you setting it up like the points and static timing it to the F mark or going further???

KB02 · « **Reply #38 on:** June 11, 2007, 06:04:10 AM »

The instructions for the Dyna says to set all timing to the advance mark. Once that's set, Idle should be all set. My bike sure runs better than it did on points, I'll tell you that.

News:

Author Topic: How do you set timing? Man I feel stupid - Some advvise forr others... (Read 8433 times)

nuke

slarty-bart-farst

nuke

nuke

tmht

tmht

jesusno2

jesusno2

jesusno2