Topic: Regulator Rectifier combo without green wire… help!

[damianiscool]

My 1977 Honda cb550k is having charging issues on a brand new battery, which I know either means my stator coil, regulator or rectifier is bad. Yes I used the search function and google too

However, I bought this bike with what I can only assume is a regulator rectifier combo, pictured below. Problem is, the regulator takes a black, white, and green wire, yet my combo unit only has a spare black and white wire. No green. What the heck, how is this possible?

From what ive seen, there are combo units sold for these bikes with no green wire, like these:
https://ebay.us/m/zvACoZ
https://ebay.us/m/wnZEWs

But there are also ones that supply all three, like these:
https://ebay.us/m/M6fsCL
https://ebay.us/m/8BlMb2

One additional problem is that these “no-green” units don’t have instructions on how to wire them.

My real questions though are: Do I have the wrong part or do I not have it wired up right? Do I need to get a unit with all three wires? I’m assuming this would seriously help my issue since the stock regulators are commonly known to go bad.

Thanks in advance!

[scottly]

The black wire from the reg/rect should be connected to a black wire from the bike, and the same for the white wire, assuming it's a compatible part.

[Deltarider]

[...] I’m assuming this would seriously help my issue since the stock regulators are commonly known to go bad.

What?! These Toshiba OEM regulators are widely praised for their durability. Mine is 49 years old, has served over 140.000 kms and functions as new. On the German site you can read that owners return to stock regulators after disappointing results with aftermarkets ones. I don't understand why people in the US keep on buying products that come without instructions, let alone warranty, in other words: non products. If such a regulator comes with wires that don't match, without any instructions... isn't that enough to send it back?
I think it's about time this forum makes a black list of products like yours.
I realise this isn't much help for the situation you are in, but your statement that 'stock regulators are commonly known to go bad' is not true.
 

[newday777]

[...] I’m assuming this would seriously help my issue since the stock regulators are commonly known to go bad.

What?! These Toshiba OEM regulators are widely praised for their durability. Mine is 49 years old, has served over 140.000 kms and functions as new. On the German site you can read that owners return to stock regulators after disappointing results with aftermarkets ones. I don't understand why people in the US keep on buying products that come without instructions, let alone warranty, in other words: non products. If such a regulator comes with wires that don't match, without any instructions... isn't that enough to send it back?
I think it's about time this forum makes a black list of products like yours.
I realise this isn't much help for the situation you are in, but your statement that 'stock regulators are commonly known to go bad' is not true.

Give him and everyone else a break dude from your diatribes.
He said he bought the bike with it already on the bike.

[newday777]

My 1977 Honda cb550k is having charging issues on a brand new battery, which I know either means my stator coil, regulator or rectifier is bad. Yes I used the search function and google too

However, I bought this bike with what I can only assume is a regulator rectifier combo, pictured below. Problem is, the regulator takes a black, white, and green wire, yet my combo unit only has a spare black and white wire. No green. What the heck, how is this possible?

From what ive seen, there are combo units sold for these bikes with no green wire, like these:
https://ebay.us/m/zvACoZ
https://ebay.us/m/wnZEWs

But there are also ones that supply all three, like these:
https://ebay.us/m/M6fsCL
https://ebay.us/m/8BlMb2

One additional problem is that these “no-green” units don’t have instructions on how to wire them.

My real questions though are: Do I have the wrong part or do I not have it wired up right? Do I need to get a unit with all three wires? I’m assuming this would seriously help my issue since the stock regulators are commonly known to go bad.

Thanks in advance!

You do have the wrong part, you need the second green wire for your bike.

4into1.com(your first ebay link) is notorious for selling cheap Chinese junk, and that ebay link shows they sell with bad information in their ads, it isn't plug and play, stay away from them.

I can't say that any aftermarket combo units will hold up for any length of time even if they come with the second green wire for the regulator. The problem is if one half of the combo units goes bad, you are dead until you get another unit.
One of our members has just completed a round the world multi year trip riding his 1974 CB750 to all of the Belfasts in the world(with some flight and boat shipping of the bike when necessary). He replaced his with a single unit twice while on his travels because of them failing. IIRC he went back to the stock regulator and rectifier.

The stock regulators don't go bad, they just need to be cleaned up, they have points contacts inside the case that need a fine points file to dress them up if they have a burnt point, so it makes proper current through it.

I suggest that you go back to the stock regulator and the stock rectifier.

[WhyNot2]

But there are also ones that supply all three, like these:
https://ebay.us/m/M6fsCL
https://ebay.us/m/8BlMb2

One additional problem is that these “no-green” units don’t have instructions on how to wire them.

One of our members has just completed a round the world multi year trip riding his 1974 CB750 to all of the Belfasts in the world(with some flight and boat shipping of the bike when necessary). He replaced his with a single unit twice while on his travels because of them failing. IIRC he went back to the stock regulator and rectifier.

The stock regulators don't go bad, they just need to be cleaned up, they have points contacts inside the case that need a fine points file to dress them up if they have a burnt point, so it makes proper current through it.

I suggest that you go back to the stock regulator and the stock rectifier.

[/quote]


Does your recommendation extend to other CB/CL/SL Honda vintage bikes?

I found this site that has them as well:

http://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Charging-and-Regulatorshttp://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Charging-and-Regulators

[newday777]

But there are also ones that supply all three, like these:
https://ebay.us/m/M6fsCL
https://ebay.us/m/8BlMb2

One additional problem is that these “no-green” units don’t have instructions on how to wire them.

One of our members has just completed a round the world multi year trip riding his 1974 CB750 to all of the Belfasts in the world(with some flight and boat shipping of the bike when necessary). He replaced his with a single unit twice while on his travels because of them failing. IIRC he went back to the stock regulator and rectifier.

The stock regulators don't go bad, they just need to be cleaned up, they have points contacts inside the case that need a fine points file to dress them up if they have a burnt point, so it makes proper current through it.

I suggest that you go back to the stock regulator and the stock rectifier.

Does your recommendation extend to other CB/CL/SL Honda vintage bikes?

I found this site that has them as well:

http://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Charging-and-Regulatorshttp://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Charging-and-Regulators
[/quote]
I have no idea what your link is.

[Little_Phil]

[...] I’m assuming this would seriously help my issue since the stock regulators are commonly known to go bad.

Why don't I see this in his post?

[denward17]

[...] I’m assuming this would seriously help my issue since the stock regulators are commonly known to go bad.

Why don't I see this in his post?

The last sentence.

[newday777]

[...] I’m assuming this would seriously help my issue since the stock regulators are commonly known to go bad.

Why don't I see this in his post?

He has to beat his little drum.....

[Bodi]

The stock regulator is quite durable and works well. It is often misunderstood, and trying to adjust it without the required equipment will end in tears.
It is essentially a relay. But voltage sensitive - the armature attraction to the coil is such that at around 14.5V it overcomes it's hold back spring's tension so the contact feeding the field coil opens and the field coil current goes way down, limited by the resistor now in series. If the voltage goes much higher, the armature contact (now floating between the two contacts) closes on the one that connects to ground and field current drops to zero.
This happens many times a second if all is well, and the system and battery voltage floats around 14.5V once the battery charges. If the engine RPM is high enough of course. Stop and go traffic will discharge the battery at low RPM and charge it at higher RPM.
The regulator can only be adjusted with a variable DC power supply. Just barely open the rest contact at 14.5VDC and fully switch at about 15.5VDC.
If your battery isn't charging with an OEM regulator, look for other issues rather than adjusting your regulator. Voltage drop in the harness is the most likely problem. Or you have added loads (high power headlight, other driving lights, heated grips, etc) and the alternator can't make enough power to fully charge the battery.
Many loads are just resistive - if not all - and when the alternator is not adequate the voltage drops to where the alternator can manage it. Lower voltage means lower current in any resistive load, so maybe it balances at 13V. Everything works OK: headlight lights the road, horn beeps, engine runs. But the battery will never get charged fully.

[Deltarider]

Good write up, Bodi. I love that old regulator that even adapts its 'output' to ambient temperature. I have never needed to adjust it. Out of curiosity I'd like to know how many times a second it switches. How can one measure that? Hz?

[damianiscool]

Thank you all for the wealth of information. I had no idea some ppl had affinity for the og regilator, I just heard they were known to go back from Common Motors’ youtube videos.

But by the sound of things, if I want to keep the combo unit I have I could just hook up the black and white wires but leave the green one dangling? Or if not then I should perhaps get a new one with a green wire and do some tests. Beyond that it could be my stator or even the alternator. Am I getting this right?

When this happened my battery was brand new out the box and I rode my bike around the block, stop and go, for around 2 hours before it died. Additionally, one of the reasons for that was because anytime I slowed down to a stop at a stop sign or even slowed too fast, it would die rather than simply idle. I’ve read that this as well as the battery dying is definitely indicative of an electrical charging issue

[scottly]

Your combo unit may not require the extra green wire, or it might be grounded through the case. Are there white and black wires from the bike hanging loose, or are they connected to something, like the stock regulator? (Sometimes people replace the stock rectifier with a combo unit, but retain the stock regulator)
There is nothing wrong with replacing the archaic electro-mechanical regulator with a solid state unit; don't pay any attention to the Luddites.
You need to monitor the battery voltage with the engine running to determine if the charging system is working properly.

[Deltarider]

I favour solid state over electro-mechanic relays anytime*, but... not before the old part has passed away. And about combo's... why would I replace an in principle undestructable OEM rectifier? Isn't it solid state enough?
* See my post about a DIY coil tester. The question I have asked there in the last line, has still remained unanswered in spite of all the experts here. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,206147.0.html

[scottly]

Delta, once again, the OP's bike came with a combo unit. Your posts have added nothing as far as helping him with his problem.

[Deltarider]

Delta, once again, the OP's bike came with a combo unit. Your posts have added nothing as far as helping him with his problem.

Now you are unfair, Scottly. My post was towards you and not the OP, because of your [...] "don't pay any attention to the Luddites" in reply #13 and you know that damned well.

[scottly]

On the German site you can read that owners return to stock regulators after disappointing results with aftermarkets ones. I don't understand why people in the US keep on buying products that come without instructions, let alone warranty, in other words: non products. If such a regulator comes with wires that don't match, without any instructions... isn't that enough to send it back?
I think it's about time this forum makes a black list of products like yours.

How did this help the OP?

[PeWe]

Stock charging system can be adjusted to work fine. It must be several CB's using same regulator and similar rectifier .
CB550 or 750 use same system, right?
Here my CB750 experience.

Look into the CB500/550 manual to compare if the charging system differ.

CB750 shop manual chapter 8
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168972.msg1959161.html#msg1959161

Important that the connectors on wires from-to alternator windings are cleaned, no corrosion. All 3 yellow, white, green where they are connected inside front sprocket cover.
Next connector the bigger white behind the carbs.

Clean the regulator connectors and relay connections. Point gap and core gap. Tighten the regulator connectors white, green and black with a plier before connecting them.

I have adjusted 3 different regulators on my 2 CB750.
Both bikes have a voltage display between tacho and speedo so I can see the charging while riding and how it will change after 1/2 hour ride. 1-2 hours.

Most important to have correct core gap. The manual say 0.6-1.0 mm
I have learned that it should be 0.8-0.85mm. Not more more nor less.
0.6-0.7mm will end up in too low voltage. Not reaching  13V.
0.7mm can cause sudden drops to low 13V while riding despite over 4000-4500 rpm.

0.9mm and more can suddenly cause a sudden voltage increase. I saw how it after a 40 minutes ride suddenly increased from around 14.5V to over 15V still climbing over 16V. I had to turn Hi, blinkers and brake light on to fight back while riding back home. I was worried about my Dyna-S ignition.

Regulator adjustment:
# Point gap 0.3-0.4 mm.
0.3mm feeler gauge goes in by ease. 0.4mm not.

# Core gap: 0.8mm by ease, 0.9mm not. Better closer to 0.8 than 0.9mm.

Adjust voltage screw so 14V is reached at 4000-4500 rpm.

I really recommend to have a voltmeter display to read while riding.
Check what it show compared with a voltmeter when measure direct on battery. From idle all the way to 5000rpm. It can differ 0.3V or so. Remember an  eventual diff so that can be added.


If you cannot read voltage while riding, do not adjust to 14.5V . Voltage will increase when battery  is charged to max again that happen after 1/2 -1 hour ride.
Using brake light, blinkers etc will decrease the voltage, it takes time to reach full again.

I have changed to LED rear light so brake will not affect as stock 21W.

Important with a fully charged battery when adjusting voltage and read max.

I'm fine with 14V as minimum at 4000-4500rpm. 14.7V or 14.8V for a short while.

I have used these voltmeters for several years and many hours looking at them during countless of km. Must be over 40.000km now.



Forum member Dave in Australia use a Bosch regulator for cars on his CB500.
Search the forum and find.

[dave500]

I rarely or never post on electrical questions,I gotta see it for myself,some charging issues people have had is from using the wrong type of combo unit,one designed for a permanant magnet type field,our hondas use an electromagnetic field which is switched on and off as needed but very fast,this is where the stock unit with points wears out or needs adjusting after many years,I ditched the stock rectifier and regulator years ago,how ever reliable the old honda ones may be the modern electronic regulators are better along with modern style rectifiers,Im using just the rectifier section of a permanant magnet style combo unit from some late model bike and a separate bosch electronic regulator which is used on cars,these bosch units were factory fitted on lots of euro cars in the 70s/80s and also an upgrade on cars using factory electro points type regulators if they failed,the regulator is an RE57 three pin,you can also use an RE55 two pin which earths through its body,mine will charge at idle with the head light on,Ive removed the globes in the guages to free up some juice as I never ride at night.

[Deltarider]

As long as these OEM parts function, I see no reason to look for replacement. I have good results with the lifespan. The German engineer I quote below, beat me: in 39 years over 180.000kms and his regulator still functions as new.
Note that Spinner in the following quote has an AGM battery. installed Here are his findings:

"The maximum voltage of 14.8 volts poses a slight problem for the original Honda regulator, as it charges at 15 volts when cold.
However, the AGM battery manufacturers point out that these values ​​only apply to a temperature of 25° Celsius! They specify a temperature coefficient of -0.024 volts per degree Celsius increase in temperature.
What does this mean?
1. If the ambient temperature rises above 25°C, the charging voltage should be lower.
2. When the outside temperature drops below 25°C, the charging voltage should be higher.
And this increases linearly with every degree of temperature change.
And that's exactly what the original Honda regulator does!
Even if you're allowed to charge an AGM battery at a maximum of 14.8 volts at 25°C, 14.92 volts is already fine at 20°C. After that, the regulator gets warm, and the "problem" is solved.
The thick, green resistor on the outside of the regulator precisely fulfills this requirement: The colder they are, the sooner they switch to full charge!
These aren't just resistors placed outside the housing for cooling; they're also temperature sensors. And the warmer they are, the sooner they stop charging.
In my first post in this thread, I assumed that the original Honda regulators only work correctly once they reach operating temperature. That's certainly not entirely wrong, since the green resistor needs to warm up first.
However, the ambient air temperature then determines the charging regulator's switching point!
And considering that the battery temperature is indeed related to the ambient air temperature, and that to this day no modern charging regulator actually measures the battery temperature, these external resistors are simply ingenious. Imagine being stuck in traffic, the engine getting really hot, you starting to sweat, but the regulator detects this and switches off the charging of the increasingly hot battery.
The temperature behavior of batteries during charging applies to every lead-acid battery; only the specific value is slightly different.
I wonder if the offered regulator modifications actually implement this thermal charging behavior (which would be really important for a longer battery lifespan), or if they simply limit the maximum charging voltage. That would fry the battery at high temperatures."

When I (Delta) had read this, you can imagine, that, given I have never needed to readjust the OEM regulator, never experienced any charging deficiency and all my batteries have served 7 years, I saw no reason whatsoever, to shop around for an "improvement." Not before a part dies.

[WhyNot2]

But there are also ones that supply all three, like these:
https://ebay.us/m/M6fsCL
https://ebay.us/m/8BlMb2

One additional problem is that these “no-green” units don’t have instructions on how to wire them.

One of our members has just completed a round the world multi year trip riding his 1974 CB750 to all of the Belfasts in the world(with some flight and boat shipping of the bike when necessary). He replaced his with a single unit twice while on his travels because of them failing. IIRC he went back to the stock regulator and rectifier.

The stock regulators don't go bad, they just need to be cleaned up, they have points contacts inside the case that need a fine points file to dress them up if they have a burnt point, so it makes proper current through it.

I suggest that you go back to the stock regulator and the stock rectifier.

Does your recommendation extend to other CB/CL/SL Honda vintage bikes?

I found this site that has them as well:

http://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Charging-and-Regulatorshttp://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Charging-and-Regulators

I have no idea what your link is.
[/quote]


Sorry, just goto                                                                                sparckmoto.com
Without all that other stuff typed in.
That should work. They do other electrical  items as well.