Author Topic: The Great Oil Debate  (Read 114 times)

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Offline bryanj

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The Great Oil Debate
« on: Today at 05:56:06 AM »
Just to throw a spanner in the works of what oil to use I found my American Honda Service Bulletins and photo'd the one show bellow, at some point i may well scan all the over 120 pages and offer them out but too much to do for now!!
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Online denward17

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #1 on: Today at 06:05:16 AM »
Thanks Bryan, would have been nice if Honda would have defined "Extreme High Temperatures".

Offline PeWe

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #2 on: Today at 06:30:09 AM »
That bulletine cannot cover CB750.

My owners guide I got with my CB750K6 when I bought it say different. It covers K1, K2 up to F1.
A later document where Honda must have got feedback of used oils.
I have not found any different in my CB750 shop manual either.
10W-40 for CB750 if temperature is below +15C. If parked in a warm garage that will never happen.

Forum member ofreen's +170.000 miles without engine restore, still no smoking nor oil drinking support that.
That is a fact, not just theoretical talking.

It is up to the user how often the guides need a replacement and if impossible to find neutral when engine is hot and standing still is OK.

"Extreme temperatures" for a CB750 must be  over +35*C  when my CB750 should get 20W-60, motorcycle oil with a good amount of zinc as usual.

Later bikes with tighter clearances are a different thing.

The viscosity degrades rather quickly so oil will be thinner.

My paper version is earlier and has a light purple cover. Same content
« Last Edit: Today at 07:06:24 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline MauiK3

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #3 on: Today at 08:15:39 AM »
Oh boy, I'll go make some popcorn.
Since we are usually pretty warm here I stick to 20w-50.
1973 CB 750 K3
10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

Offline bryanj

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #4 on: Today at 08:53:16 AM »
Pe-We, as i said that bulletin is from American Honda  and does cover ALL Honda models and if you read the small print superceeds all bulletins issued before its date, perhaps your book is a country specific book as it is not in English or even Japanese English.
As you are in Sweden i would expect you to be using 10w40 as, from what i remember, it is cooler there
« Last Edit: Today at 08:56:06 AM by bryanj »
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #5 on: Today at 09:11:04 AM »
Some of you who have my book(s) will recognize the following:
In 1971, in response to the astounding success of the CB750, American Honda's (2) managers decided they were very important people, and they didn't like the way Honda wrote its Shop Manuals and Owner's Manuals, calling it "Jinglish". So, they simply announced that THEY were going to make all "...bulletins, owner's and shop manuals in American English..." and proceede to do so.

The catch: not one of the 'authors' of these translations spoke Japanese, nor understood it. They also were not mechanics, but were blowhard Californians who had become rich at Honda's expense and thought they were real important dudes. Well, they had half of that right...

When Japanese make a statement like, "...for richhness, turn screw in..." regarding carburetion, it is a statement organized as: "for [problem] do [solution]". This is why, for example, so many misunderstand that turning the idle-mixture supply screw inward on a CB9any bike) carb makes the mixture LESS RICH.

In the early CB750 owner's manuals, Honda provided a temperature chart showing very clearly that at temperature drops below 50 degrees F that one MAY use 10w40 oils. But it also clearly shows that above 50 degrees F that ONLY 20w50 oils should be used. American Honda's geniuses (I reiterate that the only wrench they had ever held was the one used to wrestle off a beer bottle cap) simply altered the statement shown on those diagrams to say "20w50 or 10w40" oils, and completely omitted the statement requiring "low detergent oil" later on those 2 pages of the manuals.

If you have, or can find (a non-AI-altered version of) a genuine CB750 Owner's Manual, you will see exactly what I am writing about here.

The shop bulletins, which originally came from Honda's headquarters via the Honshu discoveries where the CB750 was being built, suddenly changed appearance to look just like the one in the first post in this topic. They all showed "American Honda" at the top of the page. In the shops where I worked, and later in my own shop, we used to stick them on the wall with thumbtacks and throw darts at the "American" portion of the headline.

That is how the 750, and later the rest of the SOHC4 bikes and many Twins, came to suffer short bearing life. Foaming oil, caused by transmission teeth splashing and trying their best to whip the oil to death, make detergent foam. This makes oil pressure drop dramatically when the oil is hot because foam in oil breaks suction and the oil pumps cannot pull in enough oil per revolution, so oil pressure and flow drop.

A LOT.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline PeWe

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #6 on: Today at 10:43:34 AM »
Pe-We, as i said that bulletin is from American Honda  and does cover ALL Honda models and if you read the small print superceeds all bulletins issued before its date, perhaps your book is a country specific book as it is not in English or even Japanese English.
As you are in Sweden i would expect you to be using 10w40 as, from what i remember, it is cooler there
Always 20W-50 for my bikes despite Swedish climate.  ;D   I'm sure the engine will run fine on 20W-50 in colder than I want to ride in weather.

That was the viscosity I heard from a biker friend (former CB750 owner) when I bought my first CB750. I also read the manual.

I'm eager to ride my bikes. They have both got additional ZDDP this winter.

How gearbox will feel is very interesting. If additional zinc will improve to become as good as 2, 3 other oils with high zinc content I have used.

One bike got a cheap oil of later API class (SM) with small amount of zinc.

The other has SG oil so a little bit more in it from the beginning. It got zinc too.
Higher dose since it has race springs and higher lifting cam.

I always let engine run at high idle for 1/2-1 minute before take off.
Smooth riding in legal speed the first 20 minutes before inspired riding.
« Last Edit: Today at 11:06:09 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline scottly

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #7 on: Today at 10:58:00 AM »

That is how the 750, and later the rest of the SOHC4 bikes and many Twins, came to suffer short bearing life. Foaming oil, caused by transmission teeth splashing and trying their best to whip the oil to death, make detergent foam. This makes oil pressure drop dramatically when the oil is hot because foam in oil breaks suction and the oil pumps cannot pull in enough oil per revolution, so oil pressure and flow drop.

The 750 has an oil/air separator built into the oil tank that prevents foamed-up oil from reaching the oil pressure pump, as the scavenge pump pulls in air with oil out of the sump. 
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline HondaMan

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #8 on: Today at 11:15:00 AM »

That is how the 750, and later the rest of the SOHC4 bikes and many Twins, came to suffer short bearing life. Foaming oil, caused by transmission teeth splashing and trying their best to whip the oil to death, make detergent foam. This makes oil pressure drop dramatically when the oil is hot because foam in oil breaks suction and the oil pumps cannot pull in enough oil per revolution, so oil pressure and flow drop.

The 750 has an oil/air separator built into the oil tank that prevents foamed-up oil from reaching the oil pressure pump, as the scavenge pump pulls in air with oil out of the sump. 

Above 4000 RPM, though, the foam makes it all the way back into the engine. Roadracing showed this over and over, hence my "hard" stand on the topic.
;)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline scottly

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #9 on: Today at 11:26:30 AM »

That is how the 750, and later the rest of the SOHC4 bikes and many Twins, came to suffer short bearing life. Foaming oil, caused by transmission teeth splashing and trying their best to whip the oil to death, make detergent foam. This makes oil pressure drop dramatically when the oil is hot because foam in oil breaks suction and the oil pumps cannot pull in enough oil per revolution, so oil pressure and flow drop.

The 750 has an oil/air separator built into the oil tank that prevents foamed-up oil from reaching the oil pressure pump, as the scavenge pump pulls in air with oil out of the sump. 

Above 4000 RPM, though, the foam makes it all the way back into the engine. Roadracing showed this over and over, hence my "hard" stand on the topic.
;)
Just cruising at freeway speeds has the engine turning over 4000 RPM, and these bikes go for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems. ;)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Online newday777

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Re: The Great Oil Debate
« Reply #10 on: Today at 01:41:45 PM »

That is how the 750, and later the rest of the SOHC4 bikes and many Twins, came to suffer short bearing life. Foaming oil, caused by transmission teeth splashing and trying their best to whip the oil to death, make detergent foam. This makes oil pressure drop dramatically when the oil is hot because foam in oil breaks suction and the oil pumps cannot pull in enough oil per revolution, so oil pressure and flow drop.

The 750 has an oil/air separator built into the oil tank that prevents foamed-up oil from reaching the oil pressure pump, as the scavenge pump pulls in air with oil out of the sump. 

Above 4000 RPM, though, the foam makes it all the way back into the engine. Roadracing showed this over and over, hence my "hard" stand on the topic.
;)
Just cruising at freeway speeds has the engine turning over 4000 RPM, and these bikes go for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems. ;)
True.
But are you saying that using the 10w40 that American Honda recommended?
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 1 K2, 4 K6, 1 K8, 1 F1, 1 F3
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A