Topic: Fact or Myth.??

[754]

I was told this in the 70,s It came from Cycle or Cycle World...the way the story went..

Honda 750 shocks up to say 76 were junk.. 5 K max and they were done.. supposedly had fish oil in them!! ... Any way , if you want to corner you change them...

My personal observation was they were mediocre parts built to hold a Japanes bike off the ground in the showroom. Dont recall ever seeing too many riders cornering extremely hard with them on either.

 That is why I was surprised to see them on a hopped up Honda on here..

 So?? are they junk or not??

[mkramer1121]

All I can say to the subject is I was dragging pegs on a stock '75 CB550F with stock shocks on it 2 weekends ago (APTech can attest to this).  They are pogo sticks however, you bounce pretty good when you hit a bump.  I guess good for normal everyday riding, you need an update for anything else (the 750 build has Progressives, GL Front end with Progressive springs, etc, but that is the direction I was going with the bike). 

[736cc]

Better socks make a big difference, as long as your tires are FRESH, forks not leaking or sagging, steering bearings right, swingarm bushings w/o play, wheels and spokes true, and you know how to REALLY ride these things.

[andy750]

All I can stay is that with stock shocks on my CB750K4 I have taken some of the best corners in the world (Alpine passes - one in particular had 36 hairpin turns, Pacific Coast Highway,etc etc) and the bike performed well. Likely would have been much better with modern shocks but the old ones did the job ok. Not bad for so called "junk". As 736cc says a lot will depend on the condition of the rest of your bike.

cheers
Andy

[KB02]

whimper..... whine...

I wanna play... 

[medic09]

I'm dizzy...

[eldar]

With where I live, that would have been a straight road. They do not believe in corners here!

[Geeto67]

the fish oil myth is only partly a myth.  I forget the name of the oil that was actually used but the front forks would be shipped with a vey light non caustic non hydrophilic (or is it hydroscopic) oil that would keep the seals in good shape. I believe it was called fish oil because it smelled like dead rotting fish. The point of this oil was to keep the seals in good shape and to keep condensation from ruining the inside of a shipped bike. When the bikes were prepped by the dealer for sale, the fish oil was drained out and filled with the recommended honda fork oil (which was still pretty light). There have been urban legends that some dealers did not bother with this step as part of the bike's prep and would relase the bike with this light bad smelling oil in it. I suspect these are legends because old fork oil smells realy bad too. This does not apply to the rear shocks which were setup and sealed from the factory, however the rear stock shocks tend to be a little weak overall as compared to a new bike.

[Klark Kent]

cosmolene?
the fish oil thing sounded familiar.  i just found why:


"HondaMan
Expert
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Posts: 1012
If you remember the '60s, you weren't THERE...
 
Re: Transistorized igntion: results so far.
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2007, 11:29:41 PM »
Quote
That Asian cosmolene is a mixture of fish oils and naptha when they spray it on. The naptha dries, leaving the protective oily film...that's the funny smell they have...electrical contact cleaner, more naptha, or brake cleaner like trichlorethane or similar stuff will clean them out between the contacts: open the points up, spray in some cleaner, then take a clean, white business card, close the points on it, and drag it around inside the points to "scrub" and wipe while the stuff is drying. Don't drag the card out sideways afterward, or it will leave little shreds in between the points: open them up and remove the card. You'll see the goop on the card afterward. If the points are pitted from use with a coil already, you might have to polish down that pitting with a points file or fine emery cloth first, after which the points will be REAL dirty, and need this whole treatment, anyway.

The fish oils are organic enough that the sparking caused by the coils in normal use will burn away the oils, but will also accelerate the points wear because it started the pitting right away. Ah, the world of Kettering ignitions....old cars are the same way..."

if they put it on the points, they probably didnt stop there.  but I gotta say the shocks on my 75 550K have treated me well, not modern, but not junk, and more than capable of anytihng i am capable of putting them through.  with only slight chicken strips on my tires I'd say they've let me corner.  the speed limit is more of a hinderance when attempting to really lean the 550 over.  and not being able to travel to places like Andy's picture anytime soon.  this cornerer aint gonna blame his shocks though. 

so, myth
-KK

[jonbuoy]

Even shocks on a "modern" bike will show deteriation and require servicing after 2-3 years of road use.  After 30 years any shocks will be well past their sell by date.

 

[jbailey]

I ran directly over a woodchuck with both wheels last year on my 75 550K.  Those original equipment forks and shocks absorbed the whole bump.  All I had time to do was brace myself.  I was surprised that it was nothing worse.

[Klark Kent]

see
they passed the woodchuck test
case closed
 
-KK

[HondaMan]

 So?? are they junk or not??

The first few thousand miles were OK: in fact, the DeCarbon dampers were the first nitrogen-charged shocks on a production bike, IIRC.

But, the fish oil is a poor lubricant, and the seals wore so fast that the nitrogen would escape in just a year or two at best, leaving a foamy oil substitute in the shocks. Hard riding/racing would foam the oil so bad the shocks became undamped when just warm to the touch.

By the K2, the nitrogen was not there in the new shocks, and the ads touting it disappeared. The shocks weren't any better or worse, but almost every serious 750 rider was on new ones in his 2nd year. I used Mulholland, Betor, Fox and borrowed some Konis (wish I still owned those!), and every one of them was better, more adjustable, and lighter. The springs on the Betors were to die for, the adjustable, heat-compensated damping in the Konis likewise.

And, I need new ones. What's good out there today for less than $200?

[754]

I did run Konis off my 350 twin on the 750 for a while, they were great, loved the adjustable damping... The 70's.. when you could go through three or four Handa motorsizes and run your same pais of shock!!

 Keep the shocks and sell the bike..LOL..

[Terry in Australia]

Cosmolene is/was a rust inhibiting coating used on metal components, according to one site I looked at, but not a lubricant, per se.

The OEM shocks were rubbish, but you wouldn't really know that unless you've tried good quality shocks like Koni/Ikon, Boge, Ohlins, Marzocchi, Works Performance, Hagons etc.

When people talk about the "hinge" in the frame on our bikes, the OEM shocks were largely responsible. A previous poster mentioned good tires, steering head bearings, swingarm bushes, fork oil and springs etc, and all those things will definately improve the handling, but of course, the OEM shocks will let it down.

If anyone's ever attempted to rebuild an old set of shocks (I've done a couple of pairs of Koni's, but of course, the OEM items aren't rebuildable) they'll know that the original damping oil has quickly been turned into rusty sludge after as little as 5 or 6 years, so with no damping, they're virtually riding on pogo sticks. Multiply that by 5 times, and that's how good a set of OEM shocks really is, and they weren't much better when new.

Sadly quality shocks cost money and some folk will buy cheap poor quality Asian after-market shocks to replace their poor quality asian OEM shocks, but that's just silly, they'd be better spending it on beer. Don't buy 20 year old Koni's either, (pre 7610 series) you'll be lucky to get them apart, and if you do, you probably won't find parts for them, and they'll be so gunked up with old sludge that they'll be useless anyway.    

I've no doubt that some of the posters here are being loyal to the OEM shocks on their bikes and that's admirable, but I'd bet money that if they tried a quality after-market shock on their bikes, their attitude would change markedly. Cheers, Terry.

[Terry in Australia]

And, I need new ones. What's good out there today for less than $200?

Hold that thought mate, I might have a "deal" for you!

[754]

Easy to tell if they are damping, full off the springs and give them a few strokes..

 If they pull out easy, my apology for putting a damper (pun intended ) on your evening..

[GroovieGhoulie]

Even the period reviews I read talk about the poor performance of the OEM dampers.  Said the Hondas suffered from the "Far-East Shock Malady" which was "Too much spring and not enough damper".  Seems that the Japanese over-sprung their bikes, especially the rear ends, and under-dampened them.  Read an article that said the 400F had good damping rates, but the springs were way to heavy and there wasn't enough oil in the damper, so it faded and pogo'ed when it got hot.

I would love increased performance, but I am a stock purist, at least as far as appearance.  If there was a better performing spring/damper combo that was chromed and looked stock, I would buy it.  Most are painted or powdercoated, or if they are chrome, the shock doesn't look right.

[HondaMan]

All I can stay is that with stock shocks on my CB750K4 I have taken some of the best corners in the world (Alpine passes - one in particular had 36 hairpin turns, Pacific Coast Highway,etc etc) and the bike performed well. Likely would have been much better with modern shocks but the old ones did the job ok. Not bad for so called "junk". As 736cc says a lot will depend on the condition of the rest of your bike.

cheers
Andy

Looks like the Million Dollar Hiway...or hwy 50 north, west of Durango...or Wolf Creek Pass...or my favorite, the Bergen Park hiway...all places to find out the difference between good suspensions and bad!

One thing that goes a long way toward helping the 750, strangely enough, came from BMW, for those R90S machines when they first came out in the early 1970s: fork braces. The ones BMW sold then were adaptable to the Honda(s), but ugly. They were big, round bows that mounted to the outside of the forks, joined together with a really stiff plate. I'll try to find a picture somewhere. At any rate, they worked very well, were a bit heavy, though, like most BMW stuff was then. A set could make the difference between a 75 MPH sweeper and a 95 MPH sweeper on my 750K1 when running in open class (mods allowed): it made the front end feel like it was cutting into the pavement by comparison with the stock fender-fork brace. For many races, I had a second Honda fender-fork brace with elongated holes (both, actually) mounted under the stock one, to "hide" it. This made a much stronger line, but I could not make it work with the 2nd disc and gave it up. I'd kind of forgotten about that until now: it's gonna be sketch pad time again: I'd like to feel that again on my K2 now... 

[HondaMan]

And, I need new ones. What's good out there today for less than $200?

Hold that thought mate, I might have a "deal" for you!

OK, you got my attention! 

Whatcha got? I love my Betor's springs, but probably could either kitbash then with some shocks that would hold oil or find similar springs elsewhere, today. Konis? (drool...) Rats, gotta go find a wipe, now...

[Terry in Australia]

And, I need new ones. What's good out there today for less than $200?

Hold that thought mate, I might have a "deal" for you!

OK, you got my attention! 

Whatcha got? I love my Betor's springs, but probably could either kitbash then with some shocks that would hold oil or find similar springs elsewhere, today. Konis? (drool...) Rats, gotta go find a wipe, now...

I just PM'd ya mate! 

[754]

I know exactly the fork brace you describe..

2 horseshoes of tubing welded to 2 flat bars..side view looks lika covered wagon with the top off..

IMO, easy to make and very stiff..probably stiffer than them that clamp to where your forkboots shold sit.

There is a poormans fix for shocks, it may work.. drill a hole very near the bottom and drain oil, weld a nut on or tap if there is enough meat, then fill with correct amount of oil (measure what came out) and seal like a fork leg drain.. pretty crude but may help someone loew on bucks through another season..

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah mate, there's a guy here in Melbourne, Australia, who says he can rebuild nearly any shock, and he does something similar, but I really wouldn't waste my money on 'em, as Hondaman says, they weren't that good in the first place!

[Sam Green Racing]

the fish oil myth is only partly a myth.  I forget the name of the oil that was actually used but the front forks would be shipped with a vey light non caustic non hydrophilic (or is it hydroscopic) oil that would keep the seals in good shape. I believe it was called fish oil because it smelled like dead rotting fish. The point of this oil was to keep the seals in good shape and to keep condensation from ruining the inside of a shipped bike. When the bikes were prepped by the dealer for sale, the fish oil was drained out and filled with the recommended honda fork oil (which was still pretty light). There have been urban legends that some dealers did not bother with this step as part of the bike's prep and would relase the bike with this light bad smelling oil in it. I suspect these are legends because old fork oil smells realy bad too. This does not apply to the rear shocks which were setup and sealed from the factory, however the rear stock shocks tend to be a little weak overall as compared to a new bike.

I prepped a lot of new Hondas in the early 70s and don't recall smelling anything fishy, are you having us on

Sam.

[Terry in Australia]

So this blind man was walking past the fish market when he turned and said, "Good morning Ladies"...........